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> there's an infinite number of interesting stories you could tell about ordinary people living ordinary (to them) Culture lives doing all kinds of exciting thi

> there's an infinite number of interesting stories you could tell about ordinary people living ordinary (to them) Culture lives doing all kinds of exciting things. Ok, you've changed my mind (gp poster here). I should have been more imaginative - there are certainly countless unwritten novels about ordinary people living their lives in the Culture's core. They wouldn't necessarily look like traditional sci-fi, but they could certainly work as novels. I mean, people still read Jane Austen's six novels about the interpersonal relationships of characters from 200 years ago who didn't have to work for a living and had all their material needs met (though they were obsessed with wealth, so the parallel isn't exact). It's just that Banks wanted to write about the edges because the stakes there are more in line with traditional sci-fi (planetary or larger, rather than personal) and because like you say world-building exposition is easier if you move from the edge inwards. > With respect to Banks, for example, I regularly come across people in discussions who have trouble dealing with the fact that Banks was a very outspoken socialist, at one point endorsing the Scottish Socialist Party, and who find it hard to come to terms with a socialist describing a society such as the Culture as an ideal to aspire to. That's interesting! What on earth did they expect Banks's politics would be? To me the Culture novels always seemed precisely the projection of a certain kind of old 19th-century Socialist (or Anarchist) utopia into the far future: no capitalism, no corporations, no state, no money, no exploitation of labor, the utter elimination of poverty, people free to pursue their dreams amidst boundless abundance. But I suppose it might be a surprise to some folks whose only idea of socialism is an evil caricature of the big bad state taking their private wealth and telling them what to do. > the Culture canon describes whole sub-civilizations of billions of people freely and peacefully not just dissenting but deciding to leave the Culture over political disagreements without any attempt to use force to hold them back. I like this point a lot - I think the Culture's openness to departure is one of the most clever aspects of Banks's creation. You're free to leave and go off and do your own thing, and billions of people do, and yet somehow the Culture, with utter Olympian unconcern, holds together and remains the preeminent civilization in the galaxy. What an interesting paradox to play with!

vidarh 6y ago
> I mean, people still read Jane Austen's six novels about the interpersonal relationships of characters from 200 years ago who didn't have to work for a living and had all their material needs met (though they were obsessed with wealth, so the parallel isn't exact). Jane Austen-like novels set in a world where wealth is no object and people change gender/sex and physical appearance at will has the scope for whole new levels of confusion... > That's interesting! What on earth did they expect Banks's politics would be? There's a bizarre paradox in especially American views of socialism, where some people dismisses socialist goals as utopian and from that draws the conclusion that the only way a society could be like that is if there's either a capitalist machinery hiding under a carpet somewhere, or authoritarian socialist government agents lurking in the corner. Often these people are unaware of left-wing libertarianism (anarchists, libertarian Marxists, and a whole range of other "small to no government" socialists), and so they tend to find it hard to even imagine a socialist that wants a small state or no state at all and see talk of that as a ruse. I think they've been raised by the expectations of a lot of dystopian works that presents a "utopia on the surface" (HG Wells "The Time Machine" being one of the early explicit examples) to look for cracks, and basically assume we can't have good things. When they're then also sceptical of socialism, they have a perception of a mode of how such an expected dystopia should look like "under the hood"
gpderetta 6y ago
Look To Windward is basically that book. The vast majority of the book follows the musing and philosophical thoughts of a couple of aliens and a god. Plus a slice-of-culture-life as a background (The whole concert thing is interesting). There is a minor opponent and an action subplot, but in the end it takes the backseat and the inner thoughts of the god's mind is the focus. Ah, and some vulgar display of power form the part of the Culture in the epilogue. Don't fuck with the Culture.
nybble41 6y ago
> To me the Culture novels always seemed precisely the projection of a certain kind of old 19th-century Socialist (or Anarchist) utopia into the far future: no capitalism, no corporations, no state, no money, no exploitation of labor, the utter elimination of poverty, people free to pursue their dreams amidst boundless abundance. This post-scarcity Utopian vision works equally well for most varieties of libertarian, socialist and capitalist alike. The Culture respects individuals' personal freedom and right to own property if they so choose, which is all a right-libertarian requires. Corporations and money are just tools which capitalism offers to deal with scarcity, not ends in themselves—a post-scarcity capitalistic society wouldn't need them. > But I suppose it might be a surprise to some folks whose only idea of socialism is an evil caricature of the big bad state taking their private wealth and telling them what to do. In a society that actually has to deal with scarcity, unlike The Culture, that's pretty much what socialism amounts to in practice. Libertarian socialism is not a stable arrangement in the face of scarcity; it always ends up sacrificing either the libertarianism or the socialism (or both). However, I will freely admit that libertarian socialism can work if you can first eliminate scarcity. (To be fair, almost anything can work if you first eliminate scarcity.)

vidarh 6y ago

> I mean, people still read Jane Austen's six novels about the interpersonal relationships of characters from 200 years ago who didn't have to work for a living and had all their material needs met (though they were obsessed with wealth, so the parallel isn't exact). Jane Austen-like novels set in a world where wealth is no object and people change gender/sex and physical appearance at will has the scope for whole new levels of confusion... > That's interesting! What on earth did they expect Banks's politics would be? There's a bizarre paradox in especially American views of socialism, where some people dismisses socialist goals as utopian and from that draws the conclusion that the only way a society could be like that is if there's either a capitalist machinery hiding under a carpet somewhere, or authoritarian socialist government agents lurking in the corner. Often these people are unaware of left-wing libertarianism (anarchists, libertarian Marxists, and a whole range of other "small to no government" socialists), and so they tend to find it hard to even imagine a socialist that wants a small state or no state at all and see talk of that as a ruse. I think they've been raised by the expectations of a lot of dystopian works that presents a "utopia on the surface" (HG Wells "The Time Machine" being one of the early explicit examples) to look for cracks, and basically assume we can't have good things. When they're then also sceptical of socialism, they have a perception of a mode of how such an expected dystopia should look like "under the hood"

gpderetta 6y ago

Look To Windward is basically that book. The vast majority of the book follows the musing and philosophical thoughts of a couple of aliens and a god. Plus a slice-of-culture-life as a background (The whole concert thing is interesting). There is a minor opponent and an action subplot, but in the end it takes the backseat and the inner thoughts of the god's mind is the focus. Ah, and some vulgar display of power form the part of the Culture in the epilogue. Don't fuck with the Culture.

nybble41 6y ago

> To me the Culture novels always seemed precisely the projection of a certain kind of old 19th-century Socialist (or Anarchist) utopia into the far future: no capitalism, no corporations, no state, no money, no exploitation of labor, the utter elimination of poverty, people free to pursue their dreams amidst boundless abundance. This post-scarcity Utopian vision works equally well for most varieties of libertarian, socialist and capitalist alike. The Culture respects individuals' personal freedom and right to own property if they so choose, which is all a right-libertarian requires. Corporations and money are just tools which capitalism offers to deal with scarcity, not ends in themselves—a post-scarcity capitalistic society wouldn't need them. > But I suppose it might be a surprise to some folks whose only idea of socialism is an evil caricature of the big bad state taking their private wealth and telling them what to do. In a society that actually has to deal with scarcity, unlike The Culture, that's pretty much what socialism amounts to in practice. Libertarian socialism is not a stable arrangement in the face of scarcity; it always ends up sacrificing either the libertarianism or the socialism (or both). However, I will freely admit that libertarian socialism can work if you can first eliminate scarcity. (To be fair, almost anything can work if you first eliminate scarcity.)