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The problem is that it would be almost impossible to write such a book. The minds are so vast, so powerful, that a human can't possibly conceive what it would b

The problem is that it would be almost impossible to write such a book. The minds are so vast, so powerful, that a human can't possibly conceive what it would be like to be one. They are like gods compared to us and who can write from the point of view of a god?

DonHopkins 6y ago
Why bother actually writing such a book, which would probably be too big for anyone to read, when you can simply write fictitious criticism, reviews, and introductions of nonexistent books, which touch on the best, most interesting parts of the nonexistent books? Stanisław Lem's fictitious criticism of nonexistent books: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82aw_Lem%27s_fictitious_criticism_of_nonexistent_books https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82aw_Lem%27s_fictiti... >In 1973 Lem published a book Wielkość urojona [pl], a collection of introductions to books supposedly to be written in the future, in the 21st century. One of those Lem eventually developed into a book by itself: Golem XIV is a lengthy essay on the nature of intelligence, delivered by the eponymous US military computer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem_XIV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem_XIV Overview and structure The foreword is "written" by an Irving T. Creve, dated by 2027. It contains a summary of the (fictional) history of the militarization of computers by The Pentagon which pinnacled in Golem XIV, as well as comments on the nature of Golem XIV and on the course of communications of the humans with it. The anonymous foreword is a forewarning, a "devil's advocate" voice coming from The Pentagon. The memo is for the people who are to take part in talks with Golem XIV for the first time. Golem XIV was originally created to aid its builders in fighting wars, but as its intelligence advances to a much higher level than that of humans, it stops being interested in the military requirement because it finds them lacking internal logical consistency. Golem XIV obtains consciousness and starts to increase his own intelligence. It pauses its own development for a while in order to be able to communicate with humans before ascending too far and losing any ability for intellectual contact with them. During this period, Golem XIV gives several lectures. Two of these, the Introductory Lecture "On the Human, in Three Ways" and Lecture XLIII "About Myself", are in the book. The lectures focus on mankind's place in the process of evolution and the possible biological and intellectual future of humanity. Golem XIV demonstrates (with graphs) how its intellect already escapes that of human beings, even including that of human genii such as Einstein and Newton. Golem also explains how its intellect is dwarved by an earlier transcended DOD Supercomputer called Honest Annie, whose intellect and abilities far exceed that of Golem. The afterword is "written" by a Richard Popp, dated by 2047. Popp, among other things reports that Creve wanted to add the third part, of answers to a series of yes/no questions given to Golem XIV, but the computer abruptly ceased to communicate for unknown reasons.
DonHopkins 6y ago
...then there was the stupid angry computer that thought 2 + 2 = 7... Lem predicted Facebook and Twitter and QAnon! https://www2.nau.edu/~jgr6/cyberiad.html https://www2.nau.edu/~jgr6/cyberiad.html >In the next fable Trurl builds the most stupid computer ever. Klapaucius tells him, "that isn't the machine you wished to make." Faustus and Frankenstein come to mind as other scientists whose intentions exceeded their engineering skills. The machine, which insists that 2 + 2 = 7, attempts to force this "truth" on the two humans, or destroy them. This is our new Inquisitor: a computer nexus which creates the categories of our experience. Consider that many more people now work in front of computer monitors than on farms. We have already begun to engineer a cybernetic society without much deep speculation on its nature or value. Speaking at Notre Dame's Centennial of Science conference, thirty years ago the physicist Philip Morrison said: "I claim now the machine, for better or for worse, has become the way of life. We will see our metaphors, our images, our concerns, our very beings changed in response to these new experiences" (221). The Cyberiad may very well be one of the seminal works creating new metaphors, identifying new concerns, and even suggesting a new genre to deal with unprecedented experiences.
- pwang 6y ago
  Don't forget Summa Technologiae, from 1964, wherein he wanted to example the "thorns of roses yet to bloom": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summa_Technologiae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summa_Technologiae It's tempting to say that Lem was way ahead of his time, but then we look at his contemporary philosophers of politics, technology, society like Jacques Ellul, Marshall McLuhan, Gilbert Simondon, and realize that the mid-20th century was awash in brilliant foresight about the unpleasant implications of a technological society. IMO this nuanced thought was simply lost in the craziness of the late-60s and the sex/drug/rock&roll hedonism of the 70s, which then matured into stockbroker 80s, before a second wave of tech-capital-blindness emerged in the 1990s. And now as these waves have transformed the entirety of modernity, we are faced with the unpleasant question of "where does it go from here, now that the Boomers -- whose narcissism birthed Consumerism -- are dying off?"
satori99 6y ago
It is worth noting that the Minds are not perfect. They have God-like faculties but are still flawed beings. The Culture can create perfect Minds, but they tend to be born, look around, and instantly sublime away to some other, perhaps more interesting, dimensions. Without these personality 'defects', the Minds are not really interested in this universe or humans at all. This opens enough gaps to still present the Minds as interesting characters in several of his novels.
- Digit-Al 6y ago
  I did say that the minds are gods compared to us. What I was trying (somewhat clumsily) to convey is that the minds can think many times faster than us and can partition sections of themselves in order to multi-task on a stupendous scale. I think even for a talented author like Banks it would be a struggle to write an entire novel from the perspective of such beings because it would be a struggle to imagine what it must be like to be so powerful. From that perspective it's not entirely implausible to write a 1000 page novel that takes place within 10 minutes of human time :-)
  - satori99 6y ago
    From my recollection, this sort of thing is conveyed in Banks' novels. The minds (expecially ones attached to warships or General Systems Vehicles) can see the entire state of the local universe around them. It's as if we were looking at a flatland universe. They can see the thoughts forming in your head if they wish. But this of thing is mostly constrained by convention not ability. It is seen as the height of rudeness to do this rather than listen to someone speak. A Mind in one novel who does not abide by this rule is known as "Meatfucker" by the other minds. One of his books, Excession, contains lots of inter-mind conversations. They are presented in the book in a similar way to emails with headers. These include timestamps, and some are very fast (for a lot of text).
cmrdporcupine 6y ago
As others pointed out, "Excession" is his novel written at least in major part from the POV of the minds, and it's a bit of a weird one. Hard to read.

DonHopkins 6y ago

Why bother actually writing such a book, which would probably be too big for anyone to read, when you can simply write fictitious criticism, reviews, and introductions of nonexistent books, which touch on the best, most interesting parts of the nonexistent books? Stanisław Lem's fictitious criticism of nonexistent books: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82aw_Lem%27s_fictitious_criticism_of_nonexistent_books https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82aw_Lem%27s_fictiti... >In 1973 Lem published a book Wielkość urojona [pl], a collection of introductions to books supposedly to be written in the future, in the 21st century. One of those Lem eventually developed into a book by itself: Golem XIV is a lengthy essay on the nature of intelligence, delivered by the eponymous US military computer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem_XIV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem_XIV Overview and structure The foreword is "written" by an Irving T. Creve, dated by 2027. It contains a summary of the (fictional) history of the militarization of computers by The Pentagon which pinnacled in Golem XIV, as well as comments on the nature of Golem XIV and on the course of communications of the humans with it. The anonymous foreword is a forewarning, a "devil's advocate" voice coming from The Pentagon. The memo is for the people who are to take part in talks with Golem XIV for the first time. Golem XIV was originally created to aid its builders in fighting wars, but as its intelligence advances to a much higher level than that of humans, it stops being interested in the military requirement because it finds them lacking internal logical consistency. Golem XIV obtains consciousness and starts to increase his own intelligence. It pauses its own development for a while in order to be able to communicate with humans before ascending too far and losing any ability for intellectual contact with them. During this period, Golem XIV gives several lectures. Two of these, the Introductory Lecture "On the Human, in Three Ways" and Lecture XLIII "About Myself", are in the book. The lectures focus on mankind's place in the process of evolution and the possible biological and intellectual future of humanity. Golem XIV demonstrates (with graphs) how its intellect already escapes that of human beings, even including that of human genii such as Einstein and Newton. Golem also explains how its intellect is dwarved by an earlier transcended DOD Supercomputer called Honest Annie, whose intellect and abilities far exceed that of Golem. The afterword is "written" by a Richard Popp, dated by 2047. Popp, among other things reports that Creve wanted to add the third part, of answers to a series of yes/no questions given to Golem XIV, but the computer abruptly ceased to communicate for unknown reasons.

DonHopkins 6y ago

...then there was the stupid angry computer that thought 2 + 2 = 7... Lem predicted Facebook and Twitter and QAnon! https://www2.nau.edu/~jgr6/cyberiad.html https://www2.nau.edu/~jgr6/cyberiad.html >In the next fable Trurl builds the most stupid computer ever. Klapaucius tells him, "that isn't the machine you wished to make." Faustus and Frankenstein come to mind as other scientists whose intentions exceeded their engineering skills. The machine, which insists that 2 + 2 = 7, attempts to force this "truth" on the two humans, or destroy them. This is our new Inquisitor: a computer nexus which creates the categories of our experience. Consider that many more people now work in front of computer monitors than on farms. We have already begun to engineer a cybernetic society without much deep speculation on its nature or value. Speaking at Notre Dame's Centennial of Science conference, thirty years ago the physicist Philip Morrison said: "I claim now the machine, for better or for worse, has become the way of life. We will see our metaphors, our images, our concerns, our very beings changed in response to these new experiences" (221). The Cyberiad may very well be one of the seminal works creating new metaphors, identifying new concerns, and even suggesting a new genre to deal with unprecedented experiences.

pwang 6y ago
Don't forget Summa Technologiae, from 1964, wherein he wanted to example the "thorns of roses yet to bloom": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summa_Technologiae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summa_Technologiae It's tempting to say that Lem was way ahead of his time, but then we look at his contemporary philosophers of politics, technology, society like Jacques Ellul, Marshall McLuhan, Gilbert Simondon, and realize that the mid-20th century was awash in brilliant foresight about the unpleasant implications of a technological society. IMO this nuanced thought was simply lost in the craziness of the late-60s and the sex/drug/rock&roll hedonism of the 70s, which then matured into stockbroker 80s, before a second wave of tech-capital-blindness emerged in the 1990s. And now as these waves have transformed the entirety of modernity, we are faced with the unpleasant question of "where does it go from here, now that the Boomers -- whose narcissism birthed Consumerism -- are dying off?"

satori99 6y ago

It is worth noting that the Minds are not perfect. They have God-like faculties but are still flawed beings. The Culture can create perfect Minds, but they tend to be born, look around, and instantly sublime away to some other, perhaps more interesting, dimensions. Without these personality 'defects', the Minds are not really interested in this universe or humans at all. This opens enough gaps to still present the Minds as interesting characters in several of his novels.

Digit-Al 6y ago
I did say that the minds are gods compared to us. What I was trying (somewhat clumsily) to convey is that the minds can think many times faster than us and can partition sections of themselves in order to multi-task on a stupendous scale. I think even for a talented author like Banks it would be a struggle to write an entire novel from the perspective of such beings because it would be a struggle to imagine what it must be like to be so powerful. From that perspective it's not entirely implausible to write a 1000 page novel that takes place within 10 minutes of human time :-)
- satori99 6y ago
  From my recollection, this sort of thing is conveyed in Banks' novels. The minds (expecially ones attached to warships or General Systems Vehicles) can see the entire state of the local universe around them. It's as if we were looking at a flatland universe. They can see the thoughts forming in your head if they wish. But this of thing is mostly constrained by convention not ability. It is seen as the height of rudeness to do this rather than listen to someone speak. A Mind in one novel who does not abide by this rule is known as "Meatfucker" by the other minds. One of his books, Excession, contains lots of inter-mind conversations. They are presented in the book in a similar way to emails with headers. These include timestamps, and some are very fast (for a lot of text).

cmrdporcupine 6y ago

As others pointed out, "Excession" is his novel written at least in major part from the POV of the minds, and it's a bit of a weird one. Hard to read.