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Sure. But what do you do about it when people make a free choice to use engagement-optimized platforms? The problem of doomscrolling and outrage addiction is ju

Sure. But what do you do about it when people make a free choice to use engagement-optimized platforms? The problem of doomscrolling and outrage addiction is just a special case of the problem of superstimuli hijacking our savanna-derived ancestral social instincts and directing them in a profitable and maladaptive direction. What do you do about it? Ban this algorithm here or that UI pattern there? Impossible. You can't blunt the desires (even the harmful desires) of billions of people through some kind of centralized rulemaking. Look at the total shitshow that emerged after NYC tried to impose a tiny tax on sugary soft drinks, which are obviously bad for you. Why would an attempt to control engagement optimized platforms work when the soda tax didn't even the harms of engagement metrics are much less clear and the product more universally desirable? The only thing that's going to help us deal with the problem of internet outrage wireheading is giving society time to develop cultural antibodies naturally. Eventually, one way or another, spending your days arguing with strangers will become low status and shameful --- just like drinking a big gulp with 32768 calories per cup is low status now. (Not that status fully solves the problem.) In the meantime, well, we just have to hold on. The problem isn't engagement metrics. The problem is human nature. We are literally the dumbest possible primate that could form a civilization: keep that in mind.

derefr 6y ago
1. Ensure there are non-engagement-optimized alternative platforms on offer — or even platforms that specifically avoid recommending inflammatory content. (If we don’t even have this much done, there’s very little we can recommend for effective change. What are you going to tell people who live their lives indoors—as we’re all mostly doing right now? Don’t be social at all?) 2. Once we have non-engagement-optimized platforms, promote them as healthful, the way new diet fads get promoted. Get therapists/psychiatrists in on it. Run Public Service Advertisements that don’t mention a specific platform by name but just encourage the use of “healthy platforms.” Lobby for laws preventing depiction of use of engagement-optimized platforms in children’s media (i.e. treat depictions of Facebook the same as depictions of smoking.)
- quotemstr 6y ago
  Yeah. I can see a niche for a platform that uses engagement targeting for good. "Use our platform, not Facetube. We have an engagement optimization target of 30 minutes per day. Our competitors want to be your life. We want you to have a life." Bootstrapping will be very hard however.
burlesona 6y ago
Honestly I think that in the long view of history, “engagement optimization” etc. will end up being seen in approximately the same light as nicotine and/or gambling. Based on how the narrative is shifting right now I could see it being something like big tobacco, but since the harm is less material I think long-term it may be more like gambling, in that these practices are allowed but have to be labeled with counseling and addiction support hotlines etc. and aren’t allowed for minors under 18.
Mediterraneo10 6y ago
> spending your days arguing with strangers But that isn't what is happening now. Instead of interacting so much with strangers, modern social media platforms have increasingly put people in bubbles where they interact mainly with those who share the same views. Yes, people express outrage at those they perceive as outsiders, but they are not actually talking so much to those outsiders, who are off in their own communities. Instead, they are building community with like-minded people through shared rituals. Some amount of people will take the outrage and attempt to directly impact the lives of the target of that outrage, but those are (even when they look like mobs) still just a minority of people.
- toofy 6y ago
  I’d argue we have more interaction with different people and ideas now than we have in the entire history of the world. And i’d argue people were far more siloed with people before than they are now. Joining up with people or clubs or groups who share your interests or passions is hardly new phenomena.
- mrfusion 6y ago
  Good point! We might be better off if everyone was arguing.
kortilla 6y ago
> just like drinking a big gulp with 32768 calories per cup is low status now The reason it backfired is ignorant statements like this. A 12 ounce mocha Frappuccino contains nearly double the calories of a 12 ounce Coke. The Starbucks drink is exempt from the tax because it has a bunch of milk. The soda tax is a tax on the poor only moderately related to health.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
The solution is to make people actively aware of the downsides of social media. It took a few decades, but cigarette usage peaked and now has been on a long downward trend. Use the anti-smoking playbook.

derefr 6y ago

1. Ensure there are non-engagement-optimized alternative platforms on offer — or even platforms that specifically avoid recommending inflammatory content. (If we don’t even have this much done, there’s very little we can recommend for effective change. What are you going to tell people who live their lives indoors—as we’re all mostly doing right now? Don’t be social at all?) 2. Once we have non-engagement-optimized platforms, promote them as healthful, the way new diet fads get promoted. Get therapists/psychiatrists in on it. Run Public Service Advertisements that don’t mention a specific platform by name but just encourage the use of “healthy platforms.” Lobby for laws preventing depiction of use of engagement-optimized platforms in children’s media (i.e. treat depictions of Facebook the same as depictions of smoking.)

quotemstr 6y ago
Yeah. I can see a niche for a platform that uses engagement targeting for good. "Use our platform, not Facetube. We have an engagement optimization target of 30 minutes per day. Our competitors want to be your life. We want you to have a life." Bootstrapping will be very hard however.

burlesona 6y ago

Honestly I think that in the long view of history, “engagement optimization” etc. will end up being seen in approximately the same light as nicotine and/or gambling. Based on how the narrative is shifting right now I could see it being something like big tobacco, but since the harm is less material I think long-term it may be more like gambling, in that these practices are allowed but have to be labeled with counseling and addiction support hotlines etc. and aren’t allowed for minors under 18.

Mediterraneo10 6y ago

> spending your days arguing with strangers But that isn't what is happening now. Instead of interacting so much with strangers, modern social media platforms have increasingly put people in bubbles where they interact mainly with those who share the same views. Yes, people express outrage at those they perceive as outsiders, but they are not actually talking so much to those outsiders, who are off in their own communities. Instead, they are building community with like-minded people through shared rituals. Some amount of people will take the outrage and attempt to directly impact the lives of the target of that outrage, but those are (even when they look like mobs) still just a minority of people.

toofy 6y ago
I’d argue we have more interaction with different people and ideas now than we have in the entire history of the world. And i’d argue people were far more siloed with people before than they are now. Joining up with people or clubs or groups who share your interests or passions is hardly new phenomena.
mrfusion 6y ago
Good point! We might be better off if everyone was arguing.

kortilla 6y ago

> just like drinking a big gulp with 32768 calories per cup is low status now The reason it backfired is ignorant statements like this. A 12 ounce mocha Frappuccino contains nearly double the calories of a 12 ounce Coke. The Starbucks drink is exempt from the tax because it has a bunch of milk. The soda tax is a tax on the poor only moderately related to health.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago

The solution is to make people actively aware of the downsides of social media. It took a few decades, but cigarette usage peaked and now has been on a long downward trend. Use the anti-smoking playbook.