4 ms·

It’s the e-ink patent problem. Nothing innovative is happening because of the e-ink parent company.

by nafizh 6y ago

AshamedCaptain 6y ago
Please don't start with this BS again. Every time e-ink is mentioned in this forum, the same. There is absolutely no proof that e-Ink is boycotting their own business, much less using patents. There are eInk devices and manufacturers to spare. eInk is just expensive to manufacture. Personally I think there is just no demand. You could build a large reflective LCD for a fraction of the price; you would have none of the problems of eInk -- such as the bad refresh rate -- and users have a hard time distinguishing an eInk panel from a reflective-LCD panel anyway (see the Pebble). Even accounting for the energy consumption it would probably be a close call in cost, unless you plan on updating the panel only a couple times per week. The fact that no one of the LCD panel manufacturers are doing this even with leftovers from other production lines just shows how little demand there is, outside of HN-welcome hobbyist projects and other low-power areas such as smartwatches.
- fortran77 6y ago
  The "e-ink patent" trope here is very suspicious. I understand that many people on HN think all intellectual property is bad and would love to throw away parts the U.S. Constitution that provide for that. (Curiously HN gets people who want to be as rich as Elon Musk, but don't think anything should cost money!) But why the obsessive focus on e-ink? This isn't some silly "click a button" software patent. This is a real "invention" that involves complex physics, material science, and expensive specialized manufacturing lines. If anything seems like an "invention" of the sort that the framers of the constitution had in mind, this does. So I must believe that the mention of "patents" whenever e-ink is mentioned is some sort of coordinated FUD attack by a competitor or someone with some sort of agenda. I agree with your conclusion that the reason e-ink seems expensive is lack of demand. More demand could drive production efficiencies and scale.
  - emsimot 6y ago
    > Curiously HN gets people who want to be as rich as Elon Musk, but don't think anything should cost money! Those are different people, just both using HN
  - rbanffy 6y ago
    I think that, in the e-ink case, the monopoly price is outweighting the benefit for society that the monopoly grant brought. I agree it's not a frivolous one, but whatever licensing they do so others can use their tech, seems to be both restrictive and onerous.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
fortran77 6y ago
Cell phones have tens of thousands of patents. Yet the innovations keep coming.
varispeed 6y ago
What exactly is patented? Really, nobody else can make e-ink? It doesn't seem like this idea is in any way original.
- fortran77 6y ago
  You can easily search US Patents here: http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html > Really, nobody else can make e-ink? It doesn't seem like this idea is in any way original. I must be stupid, because the implementation of e-ink certainly seems novel, original, and useful to me! I would never have thought of it, nor did I see it before I saw the first e-ink display: Here's a description: Small capsules filled with a clear fluid containing tiny particles, each about as wide as a human hair. Each electronic paper display is made up of millions of such capsules in a thin film, with the particles inside the capsules of different colors and different electric charges. Electrodes are placed above and below the capsule film. When a positive or negative electric field is applied to an individual electrode, the color particles with the corresponding charge will move either to the top or bottom of a capsule, making the surface of the e-paper display appear a certain color
  - varispeed 6y ago
    The idea was around since 70s https://www.wired.com/1997/05/ff-digitalink/ https://www.wired.com/1997/05/ff-digitalink/ Just because people had money to implement it, does not mean it should not be available for anyone else. It seems the patents are used to protect investments of privileged people and that's wrong.
    - fortran77 6y ago
      It's in the U.S. Constitution. So implementing your ideal would take quite a bit of doing. What are you proposing? That the State control all labor and property?
      - varispeed 6y ago
robinsoh 6y ago
> It’s the e-ink patent problem. Nothing innovative is happening because of the e-ink parent company. I guess I give up fighting this trope and I get downvoted even when I politely request a citation to backup such a strong claim. I'll join you then. How about: " Yes, all problems are due to patents. It can't possibly be due to low volume and low demand for these types of displays. It has to be patents. Wipe out all patents and et voila , we'll have 10 cent priced 32 inch bistable displays from all the vendors like eink, clearink, and liquavista, Iridigm will all come back to life and the laws of physics and manufacturing economics will bend to the will of HN posters."
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
kalleboo 6y ago
According the founder of the company making the eInk display used in the post we're talking about https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25067359 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25067359 > I hate to say it, but the only way we could have brought the price down with current quantities is if we built an inferior product as the price right now is the function of Bill-of-Materials. Doesn't sound like patents is the problem

It’s the e-ink patent problem. Nothing innovative is happening because of the e-ink parent company.

by nafizh 6y ago

It’s the e-ink patent problem. Nothing innovative is happening because of the e-ink parent company.

Please don't start with this BS again. Every time e-ink is mentioned in this forum, the same. There is absolutely no proof that e-Ink is boycotting their own business, much less using patents. There are eInk devices and manufacturers to spare. eInk is just expensive to manufacture. Personally I think there is just no demand. You could build a large reflective LCD for a fraction of the price; you would have none of the problems of eInk -- such as the bad refresh rate -- and users have a hard time distinguishing an eInk panel from a reflective-LCD panel anyway (see the Pebble). Even accounting for the energy consumption it would probably be a close call in cost, unless you plan on updating the panel only a couple times per week. The fact that no one of the LCD panel manufacturers are doing this even with leftovers from other production lines just shows how little demand there is, outside of HN-welcome hobbyist projects and other low-power areas such as smartwatches.

fortran77 6y ago
The "e-ink patent" trope here is very suspicious. I understand that many people on HN think all intellectual property is bad and would love to throw away parts the U.S. Constitution that provide for that. (Curiously HN gets people who want to be as rich as Elon Musk, but don't think anything should cost money!) But why the obsessive focus on e-ink? This isn't some silly "click a button" software patent. This is a real "invention" that involves complex physics, material science, and expensive specialized manufacturing lines. If anything seems like an "invention" of the sort that the framers of the constitution had in mind, this does. So I must believe that the mention of "patents" whenever e-ink is mentioned is some sort of coordinated FUD attack by a competitor or someone with some sort of agenda. I agree with your conclusion that the reason e-ink seems expensive is lack of demand. More demand could drive production efficiencies and scale.
- emsimot 6y ago
  > Curiously HN gets people who want to be as rich as Elon Musk, but don't think anything should cost money! Those are different people, just both using HN
- rbanffy 6y ago
  I think that, in the e-ink case, the monopoly price is outweighting the benefit for society that the monopoly grant brought. I agree it's not a frivolous one, but whatever licensing they do so others can use their tech, seems to be both restrictive and onerous.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

fortran77 6y ago

Cell phones have tens of thousands of patents. Yet the innovations keep coming.

varispeed 6y ago

What exactly is patented? Really, nobody else can make e-ink? It doesn't seem like this idea is in any way original.

fortran77 6y ago
You can easily search US Patents here: http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html > Really, nobody else can make e-ink? It doesn't seem like this idea is in any way original. I must be stupid, because the implementation of e-ink certainly seems novel, original, and useful to me! I would never have thought of it, nor did I see it before I saw the first e-ink display: Here's a description: Small capsules filled with a clear fluid containing tiny particles, each about as wide as a human hair. Each electronic paper display is made up of millions of such capsules in a thin film, with the particles inside the capsules of different colors and different electric charges. Electrodes are placed above and below the capsule film. When a positive or negative electric field is applied to an individual electrode, the color particles with the corresponding charge will move either to the top or bottom of a capsule, making the surface of the e-paper display appear a certain color
- varispeed 6y ago
  The idea was around since 70s https://www.wired.com/1997/05/ff-digitalink/ https://www.wired.com/1997/05/ff-digitalink/ Just because people had money to implement it, does not mean it should not be available for anyone else. It seems the patents are used to protect investments of privileged people and that's wrong.
  - fortran77 6y ago
    It's in the U.S. Constitution. So implementing your ideal would take quite a bit of doing. What are you proposing? That the State control all labor and property?
    - varispeed 6y ago

robinsoh 6y ago

> It’s the e-ink patent problem. Nothing innovative is happening because of the e-ink parent company. I guess I give up fighting this trope and I get downvoted even when I politely request a citation to backup such a strong claim. I'll join you then. How about: " Yes, all problems are due to patents. It can't possibly be due to low volume and low demand for these types of displays. It has to be patents. Wipe out all patents and et voila , we'll have 10 cent priced 32 inch bistable displays from all the vendors like eink, clearink, and liquavista, Iridigm will all come back to life and the laws of physics and manufacturing economics will bend to the will of HN posters."

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

kalleboo 6y ago

According the founder of the company making the eInk display used in the post we're talking about https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25067359 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25067359 > I hate to say it, but the only way we could have brought the price down with current quantities is if we built an inferior product as the price right now is the function of Bill-of-Materials. Doesn't sound like patents is the problem