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> I’m not going to suggest a solution to the problem of men clamming up. I find this a little frustrating, they’ve noticed a pattern of behaviour that concerns

> I’m not going to suggest a solution to the problem of men clamming up. I find this a little frustrating, they’ve noticed a pattern of behaviour that concerns them in an area they are clearly invested in - yet they have no thoughts or suggestions on how to address this? Is it possible they are not offering such thoughts because of the same issue they have highlighted in the article?

zepto 6y ago
Why does someone need to have a solution in order for their observation of a problem to be considered valid? Maybe the problem is real but they just don’t have as solution?
- simonbarker87 6y ago
  But they have no thoughts on a solution at all? Nothing? Not even an inkling of a suggestion to continue the discussion?
  - 8note 6y ago
    It's often useful to split up a solution between defining the requirements in one doc, and the design in a separate one. If you bleed design ideas into the requirements, you can get tunnel vision
- flir 6y ago
  I noticed it happened a lot on MeFi when I was active there. Vast reams of text about how terrible X is, but ask what we should do about it and... crickets. Yes, the observation's valid, but... I don't know. When the conversation keeps happening the same way, over may topics, you have to figure there's something deeper going on.
  - zepto 6y ago
    There’s obviously something deeper going on. Can you say what you think it is?
    - flir 6y ago
      Ironically, no. I only noticed the pattern ;)
      - rudyfink 6y ago
        Some guesses on possible sources of the pattern for you: 1. Criticism is fast and easy compared to thinking up a solution; building the solution; trying to show a solution works; etc. Criticism has the benefit that it can be directed to any sub-part and does not have to, necessarily, take in (or understand) the whole. 2. Criticism is, generally, perceived as "socially safer" than creation. For example, it's easier to say "I don't like X or Y about something" than it is to say "I think that X or Y should be changed to A or B." Proposing the change exposes one to criticism. 3. Criticism, in many ways (thinking of many college courses here), is what folks are often trained in as compared to creation. I think an outcome is that we learn to "see" faults more than we learn to "see" solutions. To be clear, I think folks learn to create in their vocation, but outside of that, necessarily, limited sphere, folks are most often trained as critics, rather than creators.
        flir 6y ago
        There's also bias. I could be seeing a pattern where none exists. 3 is interesting though.
- simonbarker87 6y ago
  I also never said their observation is invalidated by not offering a solution - I said it was frustrating that they didn’t have any suggestions.
- ErikVandeWater 6y ago
  They don't have to suggest a solution to be valid. You are right, but they should at least discuss potential solutions. Thinking of _just one_ potential solution would be evidence that they are acting in good-faith.
rhizome 6y ago
By my read, the essay's audience is men who don't know as much about running a business as they think they do. Why wouldn't the successful conversation about switching CEOs in the first case work in the second? Idealistically, shouldn't it? Women aren't actually from Venus. Furthermore, isn't this an issue of long-standing that for some reason is still a big enough problem to raise complaints? How many decades have there been women in upper-management, let alone the C-suite? Why aren't VCs, people who are rumored to be good at analyzing businesses across their field of expertise, already aware of this weakness? Is rooting out inefficiencies only for the businesses in which they invest? This is to say, why is this essay still necessary? I'd say it's because many men are trying to keep the old world going. Status quo. I suggest that a VC who can't have the conversation about swapping for CEO in both "directions," who is aggrieved about the present state of business demographics enough to clam up in fear of raising controversy, is not a competent investor. This is a Continuing Education topic for those who need it, just like RNs have to take a certain number of class-hours each year to stay up on current techniques and technologies. This essay is about and aimed at guys who don't think that their attitudes toward women need changing.
protomyth 6y ago
Because the author doesn't know of an actual solution. Sometimes that happens. Most catch-22 situations really don't have a good solution without some external force (in this case the mob) being removed / mitigated.
throwaway19937 6y ago
Kim Elsesser's book Sex and the Office: Women, Men, and the Sex Partition That's Dividing the Workplace has some concrete advice on this topic.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

zepto 6y ago

Why does someone need to have a solution in order for their observation of a problem to be considered valid? Maybe the problem is real but they just don’t have as solution?

simonbarker87 6y ago
But they have no thoughts on a solution at all? Nothing? Not even an inkling of a suggestion to continue the discussion?
- 8note 6y ago
  It's often useful to split up a solution between defining the requirements in one doc, and the design in a separate one. If you bleed design ideas into the requirements, you can get tunnel vision
flir 6y ago
I noticed it happened a lot on MeFi when I was active there. Vast reams of text about how terrible X is, but ask what we should do about it and... crickets. Yes, the observation's valid, but... I don't know. When the conversation keeps happening the same way, over may topics, you have to figure there's something deeper going on.
- zepto 6y ago
  There’s obviously something deeper going on. Can you say what you think it is?
  - flir 6y ago
    Ironically, no. I only noticed the pattern ;)
    - rudyfink 6y ago
      Some guesses on possible sources of the pattern for you: 1. Criticism is fast and easy compared to thinking up a solution; building the solution; trying to show a solution works; etc. Criticism has the benefit that it can be directed to any sub-part and does not have to, necessarily, take in (or understand) the whole. 2. Criticism is, generally, perceived as "socially safer" than creation. For example, it's easier to say "I don't like X or Y about something" than it is to say "I think that X or Y should be changed to A or B." Proposing the change exposes one to criticism. 3. Criticism, in many ways (thinking of many college courses here), is what folks are often trained in as compared to creation. I think an outcome is that we learn to "see" faults more than we learn to "see" solutions. To be clear, I think folks learn to create in their vocation, but outside of that, necessarily, limited sphere, folks are most often trained as critics, rather than creators.
      - flir 6y ago
        There's also bias. I could be seeing a pattern where none exists. 3 is interesting though.
simonbarker87 6y ago
I also never said their observation is invalidated by not offering a solution - I said it was frustrating that they didn’t have any suggestions.
ErikVandeWater 6y ago
They don't have to suggest a solution to be valid. You are right, but they should at least discuss potential solutions. Thinking of _just one_ potential solution would be evidence that they are acting in good-faith.

rhizome 6y ago

By my read, the essay's audience is men who don't know as much about running a business as they think they do. Why wouldn't the successful conversation about switching CEOs in the first case work in the second? Idealistically, shouldn't it? Women aren't actually from Venus. Furthermore, isn't this an issue of long-standing that for some reason is still a big enough problem to raise complaints? How many decades have there been women in upper-management, let alone the C-suite? Why aren't VCs, people who are rumored to be good at analyzing businesses across their field of expertise, already aware of this weakness? Is rooting out inefficiencies only for the businesses in which they invest? This is to say, why is this essay still necessary? I'd say it's because many men are trying to keep the old world going. Status quo. I suggest that a VC who can't have the conversation about swapping for CEO in both "directions," who is aggrieved about the present state of business demographics enough to clam up in fear of raising controversy, is not a competent investor. This is a Continuing Education topic for those who need it, just like RNs have to take a certain number of class-hours each year to stay up on current techniques and technologies. This essay is about and aimed at guys who don't think that their attitudes toward women need changing.

protomyth 6y ago

Because the author doesn't know of an actual solution. Sometimes that happens. Most catch-22 situations really don't have a good solution without some external force (in this case the mob) being removed / mitigated.

throwaway19937 6y ago

Kim Elsesser's book Sex and the Office: Women, Men, and the Sex Partition That's Dividing the Workplace has some concrete advice on this topic.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]