5 ms·

> seeing highly-upvoted comments like this one that are so confident and yet so completely wrong Looking back at my comment and scratching my head. In what way

by tobr 6y ago

> seeing highly-upvoted comments like this one that are so confident and yet so completely wrong Looking back at my comment and scratching my head. In what way could it even be wrong? I’m literally just offering my personal experience from a life of playing piano, in reaction to the implicit assumption in the post that learning to play the piano means learning to play by reading a score. I’m not against reading sheet music, but I’m against the idea that you somehow must do it to play this instrument, because I know it’s absolutely wrong. I’m not cut off from any genre I’m interested in playing, I’ve been able to receive in-person instructions, and I’ve certainly played in bands. I’m not really sure what “written pedagogical resources” about playing the piano would be, so not sure what to say about that. > background as a professional music performer and educator (now a software engineer) For what it’s worth, this is a reasonably accurate description of me as well.

jader201 6y ago
> Just mentioning this because sometimes it seems that people think the way you learn to play an instrument is by learning to play a score. I think this is what can be a little misleading, depending on what “learn to play” means. Yes, anyone can “play” an instrument without formal instruction/training, but it will definitely limit your abilities and potential (for the average person and most above average people). As someone that took very little formal training and can play piano by ear relatively well and can pick out and play many tunes, my abilities and potential are quite limited. I can also read music (I’m more formally trained as a trombonist), but I’m super slow at reading and playing piano music. Looking back, I now wish I had learned more formally. I’m speculating this was one of the points the GP was trying to point out.
- tobr 6y ago
  Learning to play by a score is very different from getting instructions or training.
- NikolaNovak 6y ago
  Per my bigger post, a lot of people are conflating "music theory" or "formal training", with "sheet notation". You will be limited performer if you don't develop an understanding of music theory at some level yes. But I've successfully challenged my music Instructor to teach me music theory without sheet music for the last year... They really aren't as inseparable as sometimes people assume :)
  - palimpsests 6y ago
    Are you learning music theory without learning how to read music at all? If so, how, for example, are you talking about the concept of a dominant 7th chord? Or a ii-V-I?
    - NikolaNovak 6y ago
      For example, here is a music theory author that recognizes that two are separate, and therefore has two books: Music Theory - which explicitly does not require nor teach sheet music: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/1986061833/ https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/1986061833/ How to read music https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/1546933301/ https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/1546933301/ I have half a dozen other "music theory" books which in actuality spend 70% of the time on "reading music"; worse, this boring, discouraging, counter-intuitive cluttered part is typically first in the book (which means that interested minds will give up before ever getting to "the good stuff" :( ). Basically I had to fight uphill battle with majority of professionals to actually learn something interesting and useful and insightful, as opposed to memorize sheet music (or memorize music theory terms without understanding / reasons why). I may one day decide to come back to sheet music, for many valid reasons; but reading sheet music is 100% not needed to discuss music theory - at least for me! Edit: I noticed you had similar conversations in the past; it seems I had similar needs/perspective/experience as "jeofken" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25812227 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25812227). I'd be eager to continue conversation via email / chat to obtain your further perspective, if you'd be willing:)
      - palimpsests 6y ago
jacquesm 6y ago
> in reaction to the implicit assumption in the post that learning to play the piano means learning to play by reading a score And even that wasn't implied, I'm well aware of many people playing piano at a level that I can only dream of that couldn't read a score if their lives depended on it.
- ajkjk 6y ago
  Of course, if they could read scores, they'd be more capable (and more employable) pianists for it, all else being equal.
gjulianm 6y ago
> Looking back at my comment and scratching my head. In what way could it even be wrong? Your original comments gives the impression that reading scores is "bad" somehow. The analogy of "These things are about a different as learning to program and learning to type in a program from a magazine" gives off the wrong impression. I play piano and I get what you mean, music is much more than playing a score. But the score is just a medium to learn a song. It's not "typing a program from a magazine", it's more towards "reading an algorithm description and writing the code". > I’m not cut off from any genre I’m interested in playing, The "I'm interested in playing" part is important. I don't think trying to play some classical piano pieces by ear is going to be easy, for example. Is it necessary? No, of course it isn't necessary to be able to read sheet music. But it's pretty useful, not that hard, and will make a lot of things easier. You could make analogies diminishing every way to learn music (e.g., learning by ear is just like looking at a program your buddy wrote and writing the same, you're just imitating; or learning chord notation is just like writing in scratch, you're limited to the blocks someone created before) but they're not useful at all. While it worked for you, most people will actually benefit from having multiple ways to learn music.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  > not that hard I'd beg to differ. To read a moderately complex piece at the speed at which it is played while playing is tougher than most other skills that I've acquired. If it weren't hard then it probably wouldn't be the major reason lots of people give up music, the notation is inconsistent, hard to read, requires mode shifts, requires a lot of attention and can get extremely cluttered. It is anything but easy, but of course, once you've mastered it completely it might feel easy. Just like computer programming feels easy to me. But that doesn't mean that it is easy. It's just something I've been doing all my life so the underlying complexity has been long ago internalized to a level where I'm not really thinking about the code, just about the problem I want to solve.
  - gjulianm 6y ago
    > To read a moderately complex piece at the speed at which it is played while playing is tougher than most other skills that I've acquired Playing moderately complex pieces will be tough, no matter the method. Also, you're using the score to learn it, in most cases by the time you're able to play it at the correct speed you don't need to read every note, you use the score as a cue and guide. And some pieces fit with different methods, for example I find it more difficult to play pop songs by sheet music than by ear (or ear + chord notation for the harmony). On the other hand I recall Satie pieces, they're pretty easy to read but I'd really struggle a lot if I wanted to play them by ear. > If it weren't hard then it probably wouldn't be the major reason lots of people give up music Is it though? I'd say that the major reason lots of people give up music is because it's harder than they think, and because there usually is a disconnect between what the student expects and what the teacher wants or teaches. > once you've mastered it completely it might feel easy This also applies to your point. I think people would get frustrated with their professor if their way of teaching pieces was just playing it and saying "now play it" without telling them what the notes are. Playing by ear is not easy, and it's really tough for people that haven't developed a musical ear and don't know any musical theory yet. At least when reading there's a set of instructions that you can follow and advance on that.
contrast 6y ago
You were literally just saying that people who learn to play an instrument and express themselves through music, if they learned how to read, were no more musicians than some who can’t actually program is a programmer. I suppose you can argue it’s just an opinion, so therefore while it might sound condescending, arrogant and profoundly self-centred, it isn’t wrong as such. The problem with that is it wasn’t just an opinion, it was an argument. I would say that learning to become a concert pianist it a completely different thing to typing in programs from magazines, and so you are very much wrong to say that it is.
- tobr 6y ago
  I have absolutely not said that if you learn how to read a score you’re not a musician. I compared learning to play an instrument by first learning to read a score to learning to program by first learning to type in a program accurately from a magazine. The similarity is that you’re trying to learn something that, while hard to master, can very quickly be fun and creative, but first you decided to learn to do a different thing that is just as hard and very tedious and only tangentially relevant. For a lot of learners, it’s likely to be a turn-off, or a distraction. Concert pianist are not beginners, and they have chosen to focus on the type of repertoire that is completely centered around sheet music, so they are way, way outside where this analogy makes sense.

by tobr 6y ago

jader201 6y ago

> Just mentioning this because sometimes it seems that people think the way you learn to play an instrument is by learning to play a score. I think this is what can be a little misleading, depending on what “learn to play” means. Yes, anyone can “play” an instrument without formal instruction/training, but it will definitely limit your abilities and potential (for the average person and most above average people). As someone that took very little formal training and can play piano by ear relatively well and can pick out and play many tunes, my abilities and potential are quite limited. I can also read music (I’m more formally trained as a trombonist), but I’m super slow at reading and playing piano music. Looking back, I now wish I had learned more formally. I’m speculating this was one of the points the GP was trying to point out.

tobr 6y ago
Learning to play by a score is very different from getting instructions or training.
NikolaNovak 6y ago
Per my bigger post, a lot of people are conflating "music theory" or "formal training", with "sheet notation". You will be limited performer if you don't develop an understanding of music theory at some level yes. But I've successfully challenged my music Instructor to teach me music theory without sheet music for the last year... They really aren't as inseparable as sometimes people assume :)
- palimpsests 6y ago
  Are you learning music theory without learning how to read music at all? If so, how, for example, are you talking about the concept of a dominant 7th chord? Or a ii-V-I?
  - NikolaNovak 6y ago
    For example, here is a music theory author that recognizes that two are separate, and therefore has two books: Music Theory - which explicitly does not require nor teach sheet music: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/1986061833/ https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/1986061833/ How to read music https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/1546933301/ https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/1546933301/ I have half a dozen other "music theory" books which in actuality spend 70% of the time on "reading music"; worse, this boring, discouraging, counter-intuitive cluttered part is typically first in the book (which means that interested minds will give up before ever getting to "the good stuff" :( ). Basically I had to fight uphill battle with majority of professionals to actually learn something interesting and useful and insightful, as opposed to memorize sheet music (or memorize music theory terms without understanding / reasons why). I may one day decide to come back to sheet music, for many valid reasons; but reading sheet music is 100% not needed to discuss music theory - at least for me! Edit: I noticed you had similar conversations in the past; it seems I had similar needs/perspective/experience as "jeofken" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25812227 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25812227). I'd be eager to continue conversation via email / chat to obtain your further perspective, if you'd be willing:)
    - palimpsests 6y ago

jacquesm 6y ago

> in reaction to the implicit assumption in the post that learning to play the piano means learning to play by reading a score And even that wasn't implied, I'm well aware of many people playing piano at a level that I can only dream of that couldn't read a score if their lives depended on it.

ajkjk 6y ago
Of course, if they could read scores, they'd be more capable (and more employable) pianists for it, all else being equal.

gjulianm 6y ago

> Looking back at my comment and scratching my head. In what way could it even be wrong? Your original comments gives the impression that reading scores is "bad" somehow. The analogy of "These things are about a different as learning to program and learning to type in a program from a magazine" gives off the wrong impression. I play piano and I get what you mean, music is much more than playing a score. But the score is just a medium to learn a song. It's not "typing a program from a magazine", it's more towards "reading an algorithm description and writing the code". > I’m not cut off from any genre I’m interested in playing, The "I'm interested in playing" part is important. I don't think trying to play some classical piano pieces by ear is going to be easy, for example. Is it necessary? No, of course it isn't necessary to be able to read sheet music. But it's pretty useful, not that hard, and will make a lot of things easier. You could make analogies diminishing every way to learn music (e.g., learning by ear is just like looking at a program your buddy wrote and writing the same, you're just imitating; or learning chord notation is just like writing in scratch, you're limited to the blocks someone created before) but they're not useful at all. While it worked for you, most people will actually benefit from having multiple ways to learn music.

jacquesm 6y ago
> not that hard I'd beg to differ. To read a moderately complex piece at the speed at which it is played while playing is tougher than most other skills that I've acquired. If it weren't hard then it probably wouldn't be the major reason lots of people give up music, the notation is inconsistent, hard to read, requires mode shifts, requires a lot of attention and can get extremely cluttered. It is anything but easy, but of course, once you've mastered it completely it might feel easy. Just like computer programming feels easy to me. But that doesn't mean that it is easy. It's just something I've been doing all my life so the underlying complexity has been long ago internalized to a level where I'm not really thinking about the code, just about the problem I want to solve.
- gjulianm 6y ago
  > To read a moderately complex piece at the speed at which it is played while playing is tougher than most other skills that I've acquired Playing moderately complex pieces will be tough, no matter the method. Also, you're using the score to learn it, in most cases by the time you're able to play it at the correct speed you don't need to read every note, you use the score as a cue and guide. And some pieces fit with different methods, for example I find it more difficult to play pop songs by sheet music than by ear (or ear + chord notation for the harmony). On the other hand I recall Satie pieces, they're pretty easy to read but I'd really struggle a lot if I wanted to play them by ear. > If it weren't hard then it probably wouldn't be the major reason lots of people give up music Is it though? I'd say that the major reason lots of people give up music is because it's harder than they think, and because there usually is a disconnect between what the student expects and what the teacher wants or teaches. > once you've mastered it completely it might feel easy This also applies to your point. I think people would get frustrated with their professor if their way of teaching pieces was just playing it and saying "now play it" without telling them what the notes are. Playing by ear is not easy, and it's really tough for people that haven't developed a musical ear and don't know any musical theory yet. At least when reading there's a set of instructions that you can follow and advance on that.

contrast 6y ago

You were literally just saying that people who learn to play an instrument and express themselves through music, if they learned how to read, were no more musicians than some who can’t actually program is a programmer. I suppose you can argue it’s just an opinion, so therefore while it might sound condescending, arrogant and profoundly self-centred, it isn’t wrong as such. The problem with that is it wasn’t just an opinion, it was an argument. I would say that learning to become a concert pianist it a completely different thing to typing in programs from magazines, and so you are very much wrong to say that it is.

tobr 6y ago
I have absolutely not said that if you learn how to read a score you’re not a musician. I compared learning to play an instrument by first learning to read a score to learning to program by first learning to type in a program accurately from a magazine. The similarity is that you’re trying to learn something that, while hard to master, can very quickly be fun and creative, but first you decided to learn to do a different thing that is just as hard and very tedious and only tangentially relevant. For a lot of learners, it’s likely to be a turn-off, or a distraction. Concert pianist are not beginners, and they have chosen to focus on the type of repertoire that is completely centered around sheet music, so they are way, way outside where this analogy makes sense.