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I don't see how this is "without the downside". A refund could end up being more expensive to Tesla in the long run (in terms of # of BTC). If BTC has a tempo

I don't see how this is "without the downside". A refund could end up being more expensive to Tesla in the long run (in terms of # of BTC). If BTC has a temporary dip they have to give you more BTC to equal the $ amount. BTC has demonstrated, while volatile, to be quite likely to keep nudging upward. In addition, just because it is priced relative to USD doesn't mean it is accurate to say the transaction takes place in dollars. That is absolutely not true. Lastly, as someone who has only bought 2 cars in my lifetime - who refunds cars? Is that common? I've never heard of such a thing. What is the return rate on Teslas?

tptacek 6y ago
Since they can choose how to refund, they can refund in USD as long as BTC is appreciating, and refund in BTC if BTC depreciates below the spot price at the time of purchase. On the backend, they can just convert BTC to cash if they're worried about currency risk.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- nightski 6y ago
  Fair enough but the consumer can also play the same game at time of purchase. BTC up today? Buy a car. BTC down today? Do not. Either way you get the USD equivalent back. I can't imagine someone actually caring about this. If you think it's likely that you will return a car, maybe think about such a large purchase a little more?
  - dyslexit 6y ago
    You don't get your USD equivalent back if they pay you back in depreciated BTC.
    - nightski 6y ago
      Sure, but from how I interpret the clause it would be the exact same amount of BTC as you put in to purchase it. So it doesn't really matter if it's value relative to USD is less? You are in the same position as if you had not bought the car. "If you are entitled to a refund of your payment or to a buyback, we reserve the right to refund you either the exact Bitcoin Price that you provided to us at the time of purchase" Either way you are getting either 1. the exact amount of BTC you put in or 2. the USD value of the car.
      - tptacek 6y ago
        If you buy a car in BTC worth $50k USD at the time of purchase, and, at the time of the refund, the same BTC is worth $75k, they will refund you $50k USD. If you buy the same car and refund when BTC is worth $25k, they will refund you $25K worth of BTC. Heads they win, tails you lose.
        nightski 6y ago
        That's not what the clause says - or at least point to specific phrase. It says if you buy it for 2 BTC they will refund you 2 BTC (assuming they refund BTC).
        dyslexit 6y ago
        It is what the clause says, you cut it off just before they say it. > If you are entitled to a refund of your payment or to a buyback, we reserve the right to refund to you either the exact Bitcoin Price that you provided to us at the time of purchase or an amount of US Dollars that is equivalent to the US Dollar price of the product that you purchased, at our sole and absolute discretion, taking into consideration operational efficiency.
        nightski 6y ago
        "we reserve the right to refund to you either the exact Bitcoin Price that you provided to us at the time of purchase" Maybe I am misunderstanding this but it clearly says the BTC Price that you provided at the time of purchase. So if you paid 2.150000 BTC for it that is the price you would be refunded? "or an amount of US Dollars that is equivalent to the US Dollar price of the product that you purchased, at our sole and absolute discretion, taking into consideration operational efficiency" The second part of the clause refers to the USD refund amount if they choose to refund in USD and has nothing to do with the first part about BTC. EDIT: I did not miss the either. I understand you can be refunded in BTC OR USD. The entire point was that if you are refunded in BTC it will be for the BTC amount you paid which is in direct contradiction to what tptacek said. It's just wrong.
shahan312 6y ago
Tesla's policy I believe is 7 days. I think California allows returning a used car within 2 business days and under 250 miles.
- akmarinov 6y ago
  They quietly got rid of the 7 days policy - https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/16/21520086/tesla-full-refund-seven-day-return-policy-removed https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/16/21520086/tesla-full-refu...
brudgers 6y ago
In the case of a safety recall in the US, the manufacturer gets to choose from three options to address it. 1. Fix it for free. 2. Replace the vehicle with a new vehicle. 3. Purchase the vehicle back. Bitcoin potentially provides arbitrage with the third option. Safety recalls are not uncommon. Suppose Tesla ships an over-the-air software change and then recalls the vehicles. State by state Lemon-laws also might come into play. At a minimum there is nothing buyer friendly in the clause.

tptacek 6y ago

Since they can choose how to refund, they can refund in USD as long as BTC is appreciating, and refund in BTC if BTC depreciates below the spot price at the time of purchase. On the backend, they can just convert BTC to cash if they're worried about currency risk.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
nightski 6y ago
Fair enough but the consumer can also play the same game at time of purchase. BTC up today? Buy a car. BTC down today? Do not. Either way you get the USD equivalent back. I can't imagine someone actually caring about this. If you think it's likely that you will return a car, maybe think about such a large purchase a little more?
- dyslexit 6y ago
  You don't get your USD equivalent back if they pay you back in depreciated BTC.
  - nightski 6y ago
    Sure, but from how I interpret the clause it would be the exact same amount of BTC as you put in to purchase it. So it doesn't really matter if it's value relative to USD is less? You are in the same position as if you had not bought the car. "If you are entitled to a refund of your payment or to a buyback, we reserve the right to refund you either the exact Bitcoin Price that you provided to us at the time of purchase" Either way you are getting either 1. the exact amount of BTC you put in or 2. the USD value of the car.
    - tptacek 6y ago
      If you buy a car in BTC worth $50k USD at the time of purchase, and, at the time of the refund, the same BTC is worth $75k, they will refund you $50k USD. If you buy the same car and refund when BTC is worth $25k, they will refund you $25K worth of BTC. Heads they win, tails you lose.
      - nightski 6y ago
        That's not what the clause says - or at least point to specific phrase. It says if you buy it for 2 BTC they will refund you 2 BTC (assuming they refund BTC).
        dyslexit 6y ago
        It is what the clause says, you cut it off just before they say it. > If you are entitled to a refund of your payment or to a buyback, we reserve the right to refund to you either the exact Bitcoin Price that you provided to us at the time of purchase or an amount of US Dollars that is equivalent to the US Dollar price of the product that you purchased, at our sole and absolute discretion, taking into consideration operational efficiency.
        nightski 6y ago
        "we reserve the right to refund to you either the exact Bitcoin Price that you provided to us at the time of purchase" Maybe I am misunderstanding this but it clearly says the BTC Price that you provided at the time of purchase. So if you paid 2.150000 BTC for it that is the price you would be refunded? "or an amount of US Dollars that is equivalent to the US Dollar price of the product that you purchased, at our sole and absolute discretion, taking into consideration operational efficiency" The second part of the clause refers to the USD refund amount if they choose to refund in USD and has nothing to do with the first part about BTC. EDIT: I did not miss the either. I understand you can be refunded in BTC OR USD. The entire point was that if you are refunded in BTC it will be for the BTC amount you paid which is in direct contradiction to what tptacek said. It's just wrong.

shahan312 6y ago

Tesla's policy I believe is 7 days. I think California allows returning a used car within 2 business days and under 250 miles.

akmarinov 6y ago
They quietly got rid of the 7 days policy - https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/16/21520086/tesla-full-refund-seven-day-return-policy-removed https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/16/21520086/tesla-full-refu...

brudgers 6y ago

In the case of a safety recall in the US, the manufacturer gets to choose from three options to address it. 1. Fix it for free. 2. Replace the vehicle with a new vehicle. 3. Purchase the vehicle back. Bitcoin potentially provides arbitrage with the third option. Safety recalls are not uncommon. Suppose Tesla ships an over-the-air software change and then recalls the vehicles. State by state Lemon-laws also might come into play. At a minimum there is nothing buyer friendly in the clause.