11 ms·

Coming from a background as a professional music performer and educator (now a software engineer), seeing highly-upvoted comments like this one that are so conf

by c_e 6y ago

Coming from a background as a professional music performer and educator (now a software engineer), seeing highly-upvoted comments like this one that are so confident and yet so completely wrong is a great reminder that you should always take what you read in an internet comment section with a grain of salt, no matter how many people are nodding virtually in agreement. Of course, there's nothing wrong with anybody learning to play piano entirely by ear and never picking up a music score. If that brings you enjoyment, that's truly fantastic, and I mean that sincerely. But for the vast majority of pianists, being unable to read sheet music will cut you off from many genres of music entirely, make in-person instruction mostly impossible, render all written pedagogical resources inaccessible to you, and enormously limit your ability to play in ensembles. Even jazz pianists who improvise and play by ear for all of their meaningful playing can read music; in fact you'd probably find that most of the really good ones are incredible sight-readers. > These things are about a different as learning to program and learning to type in a program from a magazine. I think a better analogy is probably something like "these things are about as different as being able to understand a spoken language, and being able to speak and write it".

jacquesm 6y ago
> speak and write Read and write.
resource0x 6y ago
Quite a few outstanding jazz performers couldn't read music. https://www.reddit.com/r/Jazz/comments/2hpzzp/who_are_some_of_the_best_jazz_artists_who_couldnt/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Jazz/comments/2hpzzp/who_are_some_o... This is not to say the ability to read music somehow hurts your musical abilities. Sometimes thing are simply not that correlated. E.g. having an absolute pitch - does it help to become a great musician/composer? No one knows.
- yesenadam 6y ago
  From that page: "do you even really need to read music to become a good jazz musician? It seems like everyone tells you to NOT rely on it anyways if you're just starting out,and to transcribe every sound you've ever heard in your life." (Jazz musician here) I found the OP's "I’ve never learned to play sheet music, and have no interest in it" strange - because for me, being able to write music is far more useful than just to be able to read it. (Although reading is super-useful also, whatever the genre.) I hear something I like in the street, or in my head, or on a recording - I write it down! the notes, rhythms, harmonies. How do you do that if you can't "read music"? Not to mention transcribing, i.e. writing out tunes and improvisations. When they're more than a certain speed, learning from just playing along with it becomes impossible, and you really have to write it down first before you start to play it.
- palimpsests 6y ago
  Not really quite a few. If you look at the number of performers on that page compared to the total number of working jazz musicians, it's a completely insignificant percentage. I have never met a working jazz musician who didn't read music, or, more fundamentally, didn't have an incredibly solid understanding of western music theory.
tobr 6y ago
> seeing highly-upvoted comments like this one that are so confident and yet so completely wrong Looking back at my comment and scratching my head. In what way could it even be wrong? I’m literally just offering my personal experience from a life of playing piano, in reaction to the implicit assumption in the post that learning to play the piano means learning to play by reading a score. I’m not against reading sheet music, but I’m against the idea that you somehow must do it to play this instrument, because I know it’s absolutely wrong. I’m not cut off from any genre I’m interested in playing, I’ve been able to receive in-person instructions, and I’ve certainly played in bands. I’m not really sure what “written pedagogical resources” about playing the piano would be, so not sure what to say about that. > background as a professional music performer and educator (now a software engineer) For what it’s worth, this is a reasonably accurate description of me as well.
- jader201 6y ago
  > Just mentioning this because sometimes it seems that people think the way you learn to play an instrument is by learning to play a score. I think this is what can be a little misleading, depending on what “learn to play” means. Yes, anyone can “play” an instrument without formal instruction/training, but it will definitely limit your abilities and potential (for the average person and most above average people). As someone that took very little formal training and can play piano by ear relatively well and can pick out and play many tunes, my abilities and potential are quite limited. I can also read music (I’m more formally trained as a trombonist), but I’m super slow at reading and playing piano music. Looking back, I now wish I had learned more formally. I’m speculating this was one of the points the GP was trying to point out.
  - tobr 6y ago
    Learning to play by a score is very different from getting instructions or training.
  - NikolaNovak 6y ago
    Per my bigger post, a lot of people are conflating "music theory" or "formal training", with "sheet notation". You will be limited performer if you don't develop an understanding of music theory at some level yes. But I've successfully challenged my music Instructor to teach me music theory without sheet music for the last year... They really aren't as inseparable as sometimes people assume :)
NikolaNovak 6y ago
It's tricky. I started piano lessons last year late in my life with explicit purpose to learn music theory and apply it to my limited and plateaued guitar skills. It took several weeks to persuade my teacher that "learning music theory" is not the same thing as "learning sheet music". I want to learn truths and relationships and connections which are separate and independent from any specific culturally and historically burdened notation. Notation has its place and I won't claim its useless, of course its not... But i do see too many instructors think it a mandatory step when it isn't (FWIW, I've been studying music theory for a year now with tremendous weekly enlightenment and still cannot read sheet music and it's not my I'm ediate goal. If anything I find that way madness lies - math and relationships and insights of music theory are beautiful and universal and eye opening. Sheet music is a crap ton of inconsistencies we are stuck with, giving privileged view to a random scale and basicly hindering true understanding. I want to build as much understanding as I can before getting stuck in C major as a random baseline :-) So I would say music theory to sheet music is at best math theory to written numbering system. And both are separate from any practical skill that utilizes them - just like you CAN be a great blacksmith or craftsperson with developed intuitive uderstanding of your matter, without learning blueprints and its notation (though it doesn't hurt and for some things it's necessary)
- jacquesm 6y ago
  > giving privileged view to a random scale The piano gives that privileged view as well. There have been some attempts to remedy this (Janko) but nothing that really succeeded. The inertia to change is tremendous.
  - NikolaNovak 6y ago
    Agreed. I'm torn between obtaining an isomorphic I out device... And practicality of only being to play at home :-/
    - jacquesm 6y ago
      I have one here if you want to mess around with it you are welcome to come visit (Netherlands, hope you are close). It is interesting, for want of a better word, it's like Dvorak to Qwerty only much worse.
attractivechaos 6y ago
Couldn't agree more. Advanced piano pieces often come with nontrivial cords and multiple voices. Those without proper ear training can hardly recognize even a single cord, let alone replicate a whole piece just by ear. Genius born with perfect pitch may do the magic without training, but they are extreme outliers and their experience can't be generalized to the wider population. For most people, inability to read music will severely limit their reach in future.
- yqx 6y ago
  Right, but a well trained ear is exactly what those who don't focus on reading music tend to have ("instead" I might add since someone focusing on reading music doesn't necessarily need to understand it, although understanding of course helps a great deal). It's interesting that you talk about replicating pieces. This is a "peculiarly Western" way of treating musicianship (and even in the Western world it applies primarily to classical musicians). In most of the world, musicianship is first and foremost judged by ability to improvise and to perform an orally transmitted repertoire of music. Music tends to be made in an improvisatory manner, but within the rules and constraints of a particular style. It really depends on what kind of musician you want to be. Do you want to play Western classical music, or professionally in recording studios then reading is probably essential. If you just want to make music, it might still be handy and practical but by no means required.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
askvictor 6y ago
Here's a somewhere-in-the-middle perspective. I've recently been learning the mandolin, as part of a community orchestra. I can kind of read sheet music (for the piano at least) having learnt a little piano in high school. So give me some sheet music and I can work it out after a couple of tries. I can also mostly work out a song by ear (perhaps after being given a few notes). Both are really important, and use different neural pathways and feedback mechanisms (eyes -> hands vs ears -> hands).
mantap 6y ago
There's a huge difference between reading music and sight reading music. Being able to read music is important because it is how musical ideas are communicated with precision. Sight reading is a skill that is only useful in certain professional contexts and adds nothing to one's musical ability. You can safely dispense with sight reading as a skill if you will not be using it.

by c_e 6y ago

jacquesm 6y ago

> speak and write Read and write.

resource0x 6y ago

Quite a few outstanding jazz performers couldn't read music. https://www.reddit.com/r/Jazz/comments/2hpzzp/who_are_some_of_the_best_jazz_artists_who_couldnt/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Jazz/comments/2hpzzp/who_are_some_o... This is not to say the ability to read music somehow hurts your musical abilities. Sometimes thing are simply not that correlated. E.g. having an absolute pitch - does it help to become a great musician/composer? No one knows.

yesenadam 6y ago
From that page: "do you even really need to read music to become a good jazz musician? It seems like everyone tells you to NOT rely on it anyways if you're just starting out,and to transcribe every sound you've ever heard in your life." (Jazz musician here) I found the OP's "I’ve never learned to play sheet music, and have no interest in it" strange - because for me, being able to write music is far more useful than just to be able to read it. (Although reading is super-useful also, whatever the genre.) I hear something I like in the street, or in my head, or on a recording - I write it down! the notes, rhythms, harmonies. How do you do that if you can't "read music"? Not to mention transcribing, i.e. writing out tunes and improvisations. When they're more than a certain speed, learning from just playing along with it becomes impossible, and you really have to write it down first before you start to play it.
palimpsests 6y ago
Not really quite a few. If you look at the number of performers on that page compared to the total number of working jazz musicians, it's a completely insignificant percentage. I have never met a working jazz musician who didn't read music, or, more fundamentally, didn't have an incredibly solid understanding of western music theory.

tobr 6y ago

> seeing highly-upvoted comments like this one that are so confident and yet so completely wrong Looking back at my comment and scratching my head. In what way could it even be wrong? I’m literally just offering my personal experience from a life of playing piano, in reaction to the implicit assumption in the post that learning to play the piano means learning to play by reading a score. I’m not against reading sheet music, but I’m against the idea that you somehow must do it to play this instrument, because I know it’s absolutely wrong. I’m not cut off from any genre I’m interested in playing, I’ve been able to receive in-person instructions, and I’ve certainly played in bands. I’m not really sure what “written pedagogical resources” about playing the piano would be, so not sure what to say about that. > background as a professional music performer and educator (now a software engineer) For what it’s worth, this is a reasonably accurate description of me as well.

jader201 6y ago
> Just mentioning this because sometimes it seems that people think the way you learn to play an instrument is by learning to play a score. I think this is what can be a little misleading, depending on what “learn to play” means. Yes, anyone can “play” an instrument without formal instruction/training, but it will definitely limit your abilities and potential (for the average person and most above average people). As someone that took very little formal training and can play piano by ear relatively well and can pick out and play many tunes, my abilities and potential are quite limited. I can also read music (I’m more formally trained as a trombonist), but I’m super slow at reading and playing piano music. Looking back, I now wish I had learned more formally. I’m speculating this was one of the points the GP was trying to point out.
- tobr 6y ago
  Learning to play by a score is very different from getting instructions or training.
- NikolaNovak 6y ago
  Per my bigger post, a lot of people are conflating "music theory" or "formal training", with "sheet notation". You will be limited performer if you don't develop an understanding of music theory at some level yes. But I've successfully challenged my music Instructor to teach me music theory without sheet music for the last year... They really aren't as inseparable as sometimes people assume :)

NikolaNovak 6y ago

It's tricky. I started piano lessons last year late in my life with explicit purpose to learn music theory and apply it to my limited and plateaued guitar skills. It took several weeks to persuade my teacher that "learning music theory" is not the same thing as "learning sheet music". I want to learn truths and relationships and connections which are separate and independent from any specific culturally and historically burdened notation. Notation has its place and I won't claim its useless, of course its not... But i do see too many instructors think it a mandatory step when it isn't (FWIW, I've been studying music theory for a year now with tremendous weekly enlightenment and still cannot read sheet music and it's not my I'm ediate goal. If anything I find that way madness lies - math and relationships and insights of music theory are beautiful and universal and eye opening. Sheet music is a crap ton of inconsistencies we are stuck with, giving privileged view to a random scale and basicly hindering true understanding. I want to build as much understanding as I can before getting stuck in C major as a random baseline :-) So I would say music theory to sheet music is at best math theory to written numbering system. And both are separate from any practical skill that utilizes them - just like you CAN be a great blacksmith or craftsperson with developed intuitive uderstanding of your matter, without learning blueprints and its notation (though it doesn't hurt and for some things it's necessary)

jacquesm 6y ago
> giving privileged view to a random scale The piano gives that privileged view as well. There have been some attempts to remedy this (Janko) but nothing that really succeeded. The inertia to change is tremendous.
- NikolaNovak 6y ago
  Agreed. I'm torn between obtaining an isomorphic I out device... And practicality of only being to play at home :-/
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    I have one here if you want to mess around with it you are welcome to come visit (Netherlands, hope you are close). It is interesting, for want of a better word, it's like Dvorak to Qwerty only much worse.

attractivechaos 6y ago

Couldn't agree more. Advanced piano pieces often come with nontrivial cords and multiple voices. Those without proper ear training can hardly recognize even a single cord, let alone replicate a whole piece just by ear. Genius born with perfect pitch may do the magic without training, but they are extreme outliers and their experience can't be generalized to the wider population. For most people, inability to read music will severely limit their reach in future.

yqx 6y ago
Right, but a well trained ear is exactly what those who don't focus on reading music tend to have ("instead" I might add since someone focusing on reading music doesn't necessarily need to understand it, although understanding of course helps a great deal). It's interesting that you talk about replicating pieces. This is a "peculiarly Western" way of treating musicianship (and even in the Western world it applies primarily to classical musicians). In most of the world, musicianship is first and foremost judged by ability to improvise and to perform an orally transmitted repertoire of music. Music tends to be made in an improvisatory manner, but within the rules and constraints of a particular style. It really depends on what kind of musician you want to be. Do you want to play Western classical music, or professionally in recording studios then reading is probably essential. If you just want to make music, it might still be handy and practical but by no means required.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

askvictor 6y ago

Here's a somewhere-in-the-middle perspective. I've recently been learning the mandolin, as part of a community orchestra. I can kind of read sheet music (for the piano at least) having learnt a little piano in high school. So give me some sheet music and I can work it out after a couple of tries. I can also mostly work out a song by ear (perhaps after being given a few notes). Both are really important, and use different neural pathways and feedback mechanisms (eyes -> hands vs ears -> hands).

mantap 6y ago

There's a huge difference between reading music and sight reading music. Being able to read music is important because it is how musical ideas are communicated with precision. Sight reading is a skill that is only useful in certain professional contexts and adds nothing to one's musical ability. You can safely dispense with sight reading as a skill if you will not be using it.