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How long does an international wire transfer take? how much energy does it consume? Seriously, if you are going to make a statement like "pathetically inefficie

How long does an international wire transfer take? how much energy does it consume? Seriously, if you are going to make a statement like "pathetically inefficient at moving value", can you at least be honest and actually understand the cost of fiat currency (why is it called fiat? what is a petrodollar?) and the banking system? Bitcoin is a FULL system, you're seeing the whole thing, the mining is for securing the network AND moving value. Can you say that about any other system (that you are already so used to and blind to how it works)

fennecfoxen 6y ago
When the facts are with you, pound on the facts, but when the facts are against you, pound on the table! Facts make Bitcoin look bad, and now someone's trying to witness to me, calling me "blind" and trying to change the topic to "petrodollars," a fantasy bogeyman, and drag in 50 other distractions. I deliberately chose international wire transfers as the worst and most expensive way to move money. I assume everyone knows that you can move large sums of money domestically for mere pennies. Yes, that implies the total cost of the system is less-than-pennies per transaction, including human staff, hardware to run everything, taxes paid to governments which protect the system, everything. Yes, transaction costs are the right way to compare the cost of transactions, believe it or not. Maybe Bitcoin is a FULL system. Big deal. If it's not going to share that FULL system with normal everyday life and its shared institutions, it bears the FULL costs of failing to share, as expensive as that may be.
- fredfoobar 6y ago
  Look, you can't both, compare it to some system that you know and then suddenly claim that I'm changing the topic to focus on the system you compared it to, at the same time. If you are comparing X to Y and I question your assumptions on Y, it is a valid way to understand the comparison. Your angry reply isn't going to diminish my stance. You don't have to use bitcoin, it's alright.
ohgodplsno 6y ago
>how much energy does it consume? I'll give you a hint: it's less than 1MWh/tx, which is what bitcoin uses today.
- fredfoobar 6y ago
  Can you share how you worked that out?
  - ohgodplsno 6y ago
    Yearly bitcoin consumption: 120TWh Blocks mined per year: 52560 (One every 10 minutes: 6 * 24 * 365) Transactions per block: ~2000 2283MWh per block. 1 MWh per transaction.
    - fredfoobar 6y ago
      This is misleading, why are you using "transactions per block"? that's an incorrect metric, because blocks will get mined regardless of the number of transactions in it (in fact, you can batch WAY more transactions into a block). In the future, when you can account for millions of transactions per block, will you tone down this "bitcoin consumes a lot of energy" rhetoric? Also, you haven't spoken at all about the other side of the equation. Have you accounted for all the externalities for the other monetary network you are comparing Bitcoin to?

fennecfoxen 6y ago

When the facts are with you, pound on the facts, but when the facts are against you, pound on the table! Facts make Bitcoin look bad, and now someone's trying to witness to me, calling me "blind" and trying to change the topic to "petrodollars," a fantasy bogeyman, and drag in 50 other distractions. I deliberately chose international wire transfers as the worst and most expensive way to move money. I assume everyone knows that you can move large sums of money domestically for mere pennies. Yes, that implies the total cost of the system is less-than-pennies per transaction, including human staff, hardware to run everything, taxes paid to governments which protect the system, everything. Yes, transaction costs are the right way to compare the cost of transactions, believe it or not. Maybe Bitcoin is a FULL system. Big deal. If it's not going to share that FULL system with normal everyday life and its shared institutions, it bears the FULL costs of failing to share, as expensive as that may be.

fredfoobar 6y ago
Look, you can't both, compare it to some system that you know and then suddenly claim that I'm changing the topic to focus on the system you compared it to, at the same time. If you are comparing X to Y and I question your assumptions on Y, it is a valid way to understand the comparison. Your angry reply isn't going to diminish my stance. You don't have to use bitcoin, it's alright.

ohgodplsno 6y ago

>how much energy does it consume? I'll give you a hint: it's less than 1MWh/tx, which is what bitcoin uses today.

fredfoobar 6y ago
Can you share how you worked that out?
- ohgodplsno 6y ago
  Yearly bitcoin consumption: 120TWh Blocks mined per year: 52560 (One every 10 minutes: 6 * 24 * 365) Transactions per block: ~2000 2283MWh per block. 1 MWh per transaction.
  - fredfoobar 6y ago
    This is misleading, why are you using "transactions per block"? that's an incorrect metric, because blocks will get mined regardless of the number of transactions in it (in fact, you can batch WAY more transactions into a block). In the future, when you can account for millions of transactions per block, will you tone down this "bitcoin consumes a lot of energy" rhetoric? Also, you haven't spoken at all about the other side of the equation. Have you accounted for all the externalities for the other monetary network you are comparing Bitcoin to?