4 ms·

This is a popular position but software does not rain from the heavens. It is written by people. And the rather convincing argument goes that this sort of behav

by chx 6y ago

This is a popular position but software does not rain from the heavens. It is written by people. And the rather convincing argument goes that this sort of behavior drives away many people who could've made valuable contributions. As far as I can see RMS is a neuroatypical person who just does not have any filters and also applies logic to such interpersonal matters where empathy would be better. I do not think he is malicious but you can't expect women who are constantly harassed to make this distinction -- harassment is just harassment at the end of the day. And this has been made clear to him so many times over the decades and he refuses to change and that's a problem. No matter how much one contributes, they can drive away enough people the lost potential total contribution overweighs that. Trust me, I know :(

Daho0n 6y ago
When people on one hand want to not be harassed for wherever reason and then are harassing someone neuroatypical for neuroatypical behaviour they are not any better themselves.
- chx 6y ago
  Your sentence is insidious. What you call "harassing someone neuroatypical" were requests by colleagues and friends to exhibit less behaviors perceived as harassment. You can not conflate the two. Is it harassment to ask to not put a mattress in your university office?
  - Daho0n 6y ago
    A mattress in his office is the least of what is said about RMS on HN and elsewhere. The point stands that a lot of people are harassing him for being neuroatypical.
    - chx 6y ago
      > The point stands that a lot of people are harassing him for being neuroatypical. You need to elaborate of what you perceive as harassment.
u801e 6y ago
> this sort of behavior drives away many people who could've made valuable contributions. The other thing to consider is that these movements to replace leadership or boards could drive away people who are currently making contributions. I believe that losing current contributors is a bigger loss than the, arguably hypothetical, new contributor(s) that could be gained.
- chx 6y ago
  This, however, is a hypothetical. For example, when the Linux project introduced the Code Of Conduct, such threats were made, however, at least as far as I am aware, no such departures have actually happened. Please let me know if I am incorrect. We have multiple reports on people leaving open source or not starting because of RMS. And other toxic people like Linus Torvalds. Like me.
  - u801e 6y ago
    Many people say that people leave bad managers, not bad jobs. The fact that people are still contributing with RMS at the forefront of the FSF indicates that they at least are fine with the way things currently are. If management changes, there's definitely a chance they won't stick around depending on what they do in terms of the direction of the FSF.
    - chx 6y ago
      > The fact that people are still contributing with RMS at the forefront of the FSF indicates that they at least are fine with the way things currently are. Some people do. Some do not. https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/994010501460865025 https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/994010501460865025 In Github's 2017 survey, 50% of the 5,500 respondents claimed they had witnessed toxic interactions while working on open-source projects, and that 18% of them had suffered through a negative interaction. Also, 95% of contributors were men and 3% were women. Are you sure people are still contributing or is it just men who do with very, very few women who is willing to put up with this? https://www.php.net/credits.php https://www.php.net/credits.php here, count the women. Or rather the woman! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator_for_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator_for_life not. a. single. woman. Not all of this is on Stallman but as he is the figurehead of an entire movement, certainly at least some of it is.

by chx 6y ago

Daho0n 6y ago

When people on one hand want to not be harassed for wherever reason and then are harassing someone neuroatypical for neuroatypical behaviour they are not any better themselves.

chx 6y ago
Your sentence is insidious. What you call "harassing someone neuroatypical" were requests by colleagues and friends to exhibit less behaviors perceived as harassment. You can not conflate the two. Is it harassment to ask to not put a mattress in your university office?
- Daho0n 6y ago
  A mattress in his office is the least of what is said about RMS on HN and elsewhere. The point stands that a lot of people are harassing him for being neuroatypical.
  - chx 6y ago
    > The point stands that a lot of people are harassing him for being neuroatypical. You need to elaborate of what you perceive as harassment.

u801e 6y ago

> this sort of behavior drives away many people who could've made valuable contributions. The other thing to consider is that these movements to replace leadership or boards could drive away people who are currently making contributions. I believe that losing current contributors is a bigger loss than the, arguably hypothetical, new contributor(s) that could be gained.

chx 6y ago
This, however, is a hypothetical. For example, when the Linux project introduced the Code Of Conduct, such threats were made, however, at least as far as I am aware, no such departures have actually happened. Please let me know if I am incorrect. We have multiple reports on people leaving open source or not starting because of RMS. And other toxic people like Linus Torvalds. Like me.
- u801e 6y ago
  Many people say that people leave bad managers, not bad jobs. The fact that people are still contributing with RMS at the forefront of the FSF indicates that they at least are fine with the way things currently are. If management changes, there's definitely a chance they won't stick around depending on what they do in terms of the direction of the FSF.
  - chx 6y ago
    > The fact that people are still contributing with RMS at the forefront of the FSF indicates that they at least are fine with the way things currently are. Some people do. Some do not. https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/994010501460865025 https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/994010501460865025 In Github's 2017 survey, 50% of the 5,500 respondents claimed they had witnessed toxic interactions while working on open-source projects, and that 18% of them had suffered through a negative interaction. Also, 95% of contributors were men and 3% were women. Are you sure people are still contributing or is it just men who do with very, very few women who is willing to put up with this? https://www.php.net/credits.php https://www.php.net/credits.php here, count the women. Or rather the woman! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator_for_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator_for_life not. a. single. woman. Not all of this is on Stallman but as he is the figurehead of an entire movement, certainly at least some of it is.