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> Well there is a value, albeit a small one. > Bitcoin is a ledger. This is false. Let's say I am shady business that launders money. Is bitcoin helping stop

> Well there is a value, albeit a small one. > Bitcoin is a ledger. This is false. Let's say I am shady business that launders money. Is bitcoin helping stop my laundering? No... I just use regular money which can't be tracked so easily... In essence, bitcoin makes it easier to track money of people who don't mind their money is being tracked or are inept enough to understand their money can be traced.

colechristensen 6y ago
How does any of that refute the claim that there is value in what bitcoin does or that it is a ledger? (who can deny that bitcoin is a ledger anyway? I'd like to see somebody define a ledger and what bitcoin does and show the contradiction)
- lmilcin 6y ago
  I work with accounting systems on daily basis and also have accounting background. Ledger does not replace need for accountants. We already have a bunch of software for ledger (that also doesn't require to burn huge amounts of energy). Banks are ledger and if somebody like a government want to get info from that ledger it has been quite easy recently -- even Swiss banks relented and have been forced to submit information. Accountants are people who specialize in knowing how to categorize stuff before it is put on a ledger in a way that meets requirements of local law and makes business more easy to conduct. I don't see any possible way in which bitcoin is making this easier.
  - colechristensen 6y ago
    I'm not making the claim that bitcoin replaces an accounting firm? >I don't see any possible way in which bitcoin is making this easier. Who says it has to be easier or better? It does the work of handling transactions and keeping track of balances. With bitcoin as a user you only have to pay a very tiny transaction fee in order to keep track of your account value and handle the transfer from one account to another. Is this better? Well you don't have to pay somebody to operate software and as long as you can access the bitcoin network there aren't any impediments to doing transactions. But the point isn't if bitcoin is better or best or even good, just that is does the thing and doing that thing has value.
fastball 6y ago
What are you talking about? People literally use the Bitcoin to transact, speculation notwithstanding. How is that not value?
- lmilcin 6y ago
  People can use ANYTHING to transact. Seashells? Specs of rare metals? Pieces of paper with signatures? Bags of cocoa leaves? Bits in a computer database owned by a trusted party? Bitcoin does not provide value, it is just one of possible alternative to use to make transacting easier. Unfortunately, bitcoin also burns energy at a rate of small country which is quite unnecessary but will make every person poorer (if only for making our environment worse).
  - fastball 6y ago
    Yes, and if actually used, those things have value too. You might want to look into how much our existing banking systems consumes in terms of total energy. It might shock you. Bitcoin mostly only contends with two costs – energy (computing hashes) and resources (making mining rigs). Meanwhile, traditional banking systems have crazy high energy and resource costs from: building physical banks, vaults, armored cards, paper money, coins, bank clouds, stock market clouds, cheques, payment networks (Visa / MasterCard)... the list goes on. Additionally, classical banking has incredibly high human capital costs – think of all the innumerous people involved in just maintaining a system of trust compared with the near-zero human capital cost of the Bitcoin network.
    - lmilcin 6y ago
      > You might want to look into how much our existing banking systems consumes in terms of total energy. It might shock you. Actually working for a bank, I can tell you that banks do a lot more than just keep your money. If you are not convinced try to move your entire financial life to bitcoin and tell me how you get cash, how you pay for fuel at gas station or pay your taxes. Does bitcoin have inherently web application for you to log in and manage your account? Does it have a call center for you to call to block your credit card? What about a host of other services banks provide you just conveniently omitted?

colechristensen 6y ago

How does any of that refute the claim that there is value in what bitcoin does or that it is a ledger? (who can deny that bitcoin is a ledger anyway? I'd like to see somebody define a ledger and what bitcoin does and show the contradiction)

lmilcin 6y ago
I work with accounting systems on daily basis and also have accounting background. Ledger does not replace need for accountants. We already have a bunch of software for ledger (that also doesn't require to burn huge amounts of energy). Banks are ledger and if somebody like a government want to get info from that ledger it has been quite easy recently -- even Swiss banks relented and have been forced to submit information. Accountants are people who specialize in knowing how to categorize stuff before it is put on a ledger in a way that meets requirements of local law and makes business more easy to conduct. I don't see any possible way in which bitcoin is making this easier.
- colechristensen 6y ago
  I'm not making the claim that bitcoin replaces an accounting firm? >I don't see any possible way in which bitcoin is making this easier. Who says it has to be easier or better? It does the work of handling transactions and keeping track of balances. With bitcoin as a user you only have to pay a very tiny transaction fee in order to keep track of your account value and handle the transfer from one account to another. Is this better? Well you don't have to pay somebody to operate software and as long as you can access the bitcoin network there aren't any impediments to doing transactions. But the point isn't if bitcoin is better or best or even good, just that is does the thing and doing that thing has value.

fastball 6y ago

What are you talking about? People literally use the Bitcoin to transact, speculation notwithstanding. How is that not value?

lmilcin 6y ago
People can use ANYTHING to transact. Seashells? Specs of rare metals? Pieces of paper with signatures? Bags of cocoa leaves? Bits in a computer database owned by a trusted party? Bitcoin does not provide value, it is just one of possible alternative to use to make transacting easier. Unfortunately, bitcoin also burns energy at a rate of small country which is quite unnecessary but will make every person poorer (if only for making our environment worse).
- fastball 6y ago
  Yes, and if actually used, those things have value too. You might want to look into how much our existing banking systems consumes in terms of total energy. It might shock you. Bitcoin mostly only contends with two costs – energy (computing hashes) and resources (making mining rigs). Meanwhile, traditional banking systems have crazy high energy and resource costs from: building physical banks, vaults, armored cards, paper money, coins, bank clouds, stock market clouds, cheques, payment networks (Visa / MasterCard)... the list goes on. Additionally, classical banking has incredibly high human capital costs – think of all the innumerous people involved in just maintaining a system of trust compared with the near-zero human capital cost of the Bitcoin network.
  - lmilcin 6y ago
    > You might want to look into how much our existing banking systems consumes in terms of total energy. It might shock you. Actually working for a bank, I can tell you that banks do a lot more than just keep your money. If you are not convinced try to move your entire financial life to bitcoin and tell me how you get cash, how you pay for fuel at gas station or pay your taxes. Does bitcoin have inherently web application for you to log in and manage your account? Does it have a call center for you to call to block your credit card? What about a host of other services banks provide you just conveniently omitted?