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> I was not familiar with the original argument but it's so ridiculous at face value that I wonder if a rebuttal was necessary. Apparently a huge number of bli

> I was not familiar with the original argument but it's so ridiculous at face value that I wonder if a rebuttal was necessary. Apparently a huge number of blinded people run in amok preaching how Bitcoin is saving the world. It is not. There is no single reason for bitcoin to exist other than perpetuate value for people who are invested in it while also burning energy at a rate of not a very small country. It needs to be repeated until enough people inept in financial or technical matters understand it.

LAMike 6y ago
> Bitcoin is saving the world. It saved my world, and millions of others. All the things HN pundits love to talk about, but when it comes to actually making the world a better place, people like you become Luddites and naysayers. HFSP
- adwn 6y ago
  > It saved my world, and millions of others. How? Be specific. > [...] but when it comes to actually making the world a better place [...] How is Bitcoin making the world a better place? Be specific. > HFSP I had to look this one up. For anyone wondering, apparently it means "Have Fun Staying Poor".
  - LAMike 6y ago
    How is Bitcoin making the world a better place? Be specific. Improving the lives of 100 million people by giving them a way to save money without a government agency. If you can't figure out why that has value, you're probably are a beneficiary of anglo centric privilege, and in that case I hope you NEVER buy any BTC. > I had to look this one up. Remember it. It won't be the last time someone says this to you
- pessimizer 6y ago
  > It saved my world, and millions of others. It definitely didn't. It may have made you money, or given you a creative programming outlet, or friends. You could also get that from dealing large amounts of cocaine, but you wouldn't be able to pretend you were a revolutionary.
  - LAMike 6y ago
    You have no idea about me or my background. Stop trying to tell ME what I have experienced. 100 Million people have benefitted from Bitcoin and it's censorship resistant network. If you can't figure out why this trillion dollar network has value, I can honestly say I am jealous of your financial and anglo centric privilege and hope you never acquire any Bitcoin, you obviously don't deserve it.
- DasIch 6y ago
  Bitcoin being a net-negative investment doesn't exclude the possibility of a few winners. Much like some people do actually benefit from pyramid schemes.
  - LAMike 6y ago
    Comparing Bitcoin to a pyramid scheme is a low IQ take, even for HN. Please do like the OP and make better FUD so we can clown you in the comments further. Also, Bitcoin is a net-positive for the environment no matter how "mean" people like me are to you. Run the numbers
    - DasIch 6y ago
      If bitcoin stopped existing today, the environment would be better off because right now the impact is negative. It could only become net-positive, if there are changes in the future. Even if you believe such changes will happen, I think you'll have to agree that this is speculation. It's not net-positive for the environment, it might be net-positive for the environment. That's unrelated to it being negative-sum though. Running the numbers on this is trivial. You can only profit from bitcoin by selling it to someone else for more than you paid for it. Inevitably for some people to profit, some people have to lose a corresponding amount. This alone would make bitcoin zero-sum. Some people, miners, are special though in that they are by design always making a profit. That they extract from the network making bitcoin negative-sum. As a consequence it's positive only for those people who find a loser to sell to, are miners or "shovel" makers (electricity, hardware, ...)
      - LAMike 6y ago
        I suggest you take a look at the stranded energy market and rethink your premise. Energy is, at this moment, being overproduced by design The reason for this is because in case there is an emergency (like a snowstorm in TX) energy producers can switch on overdrive and heat homes. By increasing the amount of energy capacity we have, we become more resilient to situations that require massive amounts of energy. Society needs an increase in energy production in order to uplift the lifestyle of the world, there is no way around that.
- jenoer 6y ago
  The toxicity of a lot of Bitcoin advocates' comments on HN does not exactly make me feel like being invited to a fun movement. "Have Fun Staying Poor" is in my opinion a disgusting remark to make to complete strangers.
  - LAMike 6y ago
    > does not exactly make me feel like being invited to a fun movement I heard Ethereum has a GREAT community, they even do synchronized dances in Unicorn outfits! Also they are moving towards PoS, so it won't boil the oceans like BTC. You should really look into it! People from SV/HN find it much friendlier than the toxicity in the BTC community.
Empact 6y ago
> There is no single reason for bitcoin to exist Just from my lifetime: Hyperinflation in Venezuela and Zimbabwe. Inflation in Argentina. The housing bubble. The internet bubble. Banker bailouts. Our current everything bubble.
- foepys 6y ago
  How does Bitcoin help? Deflation is actually bad for the economy because people hoard money. It would be stupid to buy things because money gets more valuable over time while things depreciate.
  - Empact 6y ago
    It's funny to me that deflation being bad is an orthodoxy despite the paucity of evidence for this. Can you point to a deflationary episode that was harmful? Japan had the "lost decade" of slow growth, but is slow growth bad? Is the absence of conspicuous consumption lamentable? In comparison, people starve and flee, and societies collapse under episodes of hyperinflation. The classic example of functional deflation is in technology: computers have been under substantial deflationary pressure from the increase in performance year over year, yet people still have bought computers, and the industry has still prospered despite this. Likewise, civilization was largely built on hard money economies, and prospered, despite the difficulty of debasing within them. It has largely fallen under soft money conditions, as in the the Weimar Republic, or the debasement of the late Roman Empire. Note that this "deflation is bad" orthodoxy is propagated by the same economic regime that embraces inflation as beneficial, and profits from the printing of money.
- Closi 6y ago
  Bitcoin doesn't stop bubbles or protect you from one any more than investment in another asset - in fact it's more than likely a bubble itself.
  - Empact 6y ago
    The bubbles I've observed have been a product of or exacerbated by artificially low interest rates and the money printing that enables them. If Bitcoin achieves its goal, it will remove or reduce the power of the government to print money and otherwise set interest rates, which will enable market-based interest rates to emerge.

LAMike 6y ago

> Bitcoin is saving the world. It saved my world, and millions of others. All the things HN pundits love to talk about, but when it comes to actually making the world a better place, people like you become Luddites and naysayers. HFSP

adwn 6y ago
> It saved my world, and millions of others. How? Be specific. > [...] but when it comes to actually making the world a better place [...] How is Bitcoin making the world a better place? Be specific. > HFSP I had to look this one up. For anyone wondering, apparently it means "Have Fun Staying Poor".
- LAMike 6y ago
  How is Bitcoin making the world a better place? Be specific. Improving the lives of 100 million people by giving them a way to save money without a government agency. If you can't figure out why that has value, you're probably are a beneficiary of anglo centric privilege, and in that case I hope you NEVER buy any BTC. > I had to look this one up. Remember it. It won't be the last time someone says this to you
pessimizer 6y ago
> It saved my world, and millions of others. It definitely didn't. It may have made you money, or given you a creative programming outlet, or friends. You could also get that from dealing large amounts of cocaine, but you wouldn't be able to pretend you were a revolutionary.
- LAMike 6y ago
  You have no idea about me or my background. Stop trying to tell ME what I have experienced. 100 Million people have benefitted from Bitcoin and it's censorship resistant network. If you can't figure out why this trillion dollar network has value, I can honestly say I am jealous of your financial and anglo centric privilege and hope you never acquire any Bitcoin, you obviously don't deserve it.
DasIch 6y ago
Bitcoin being a net-negative investment doesn't exclude the possibility of a few winners. Much like some people do actually benefit from pyramid schemes.
- LAMike 6y ago
  Comparing Bitcoin to a pyramid scheme is a low IQ take, even for HN. Please do like the OP and make better FUD so we can clown you in the comments further. Also, Bitcoin is a net-positive for the environment no matter how "mean" people like me are to you. Run the numbers
  - DasIch 6y ago
    If bitcoin stopped existing today, the environment would be better off because right now the impact is negative. It could only become net-positive, if there are changes in the future. Even if you believe such changes will happen, I think you'll have to agree that this is speculation. It's not net-positive for the environment, it might be net-positive for the environment. That's unrelated to it being negative-sum though. Running the numbers on this is trivial. You can only profit from bitcoin by selling it to someone else for more than you paid for it. Inevitably for some people to profit, some people have to lose a corresponding amount. This alone would make bitcoin zero-sum. Some people, miners, are special though in that they are by design always making a profit. That they extract from the network making bitcoin negative-sum. As a consequence it's positive only for those people who find a loser to sell to, are miners or "shovel" makers (electricity, hardware, ...)
    - LAMike 6y ago
      I suggest you take a look at the stranded energy market and rethink your premise. Energy is, at this moment, being overproduced by design The reason for this is because in case there is an emergency (like a snowstorm in TX) energy producers can switch on overdrive and heat homes. By increasing the amount of energy capacity we have, we become more resilient to situations that require massive amounts of energy. Society needs an increase in energy production in order to uplift the lifestyle of the world, there is no way around that.
jenoer 6y ago
The toxicity of a lot of Bitcoin advocates' comments on HN does not exactly make me feel like being invited to a fun movement. "Have Fun Staying Poor" is in my opinion a disgusting remark to make to complete strangers.
- LAMike 6y ago
  > does not exactly make me feel like being invited to a fun movement I heard Ethereum has a GREAT community, they even do synchronized dances in Unicorn outfits! Also they are moving towards PoS, so it won't boil the oceans like BTC. You should really look into it! People from SV/HN find it much friendlier than the toxicity in the BTC community.

Empact 6y ago

> There is no single reason for bitcoin to exist Just from my lifetime: Hyperinflation in Venezuela and Zimbabwe. Inflation in Argentina. The housing bubble. The internet bubble. Banker bailouts. Our current everything bubble.

foepys 6y ago
How does Bitcoin help? Deflation is actually bad for the economy because people hoard money. It would be stupid to buy things because money gets more valuable over time while things depreciate.
- Empact 6y ago
  It's funny to me that deflation being bad is an orthodoxy despite the paucity of evidence for this. Can you point to a deflationary episode that was harmful? Japan had the "lost decade" of slow growth, but is slow growth bad? Is the absence of conspicuous consumption lamentable? In comparison, people starve and flee, and societies collapse under episodes of hyperinflation. The classic example of functional deflation is in technology: computers have been under substantial deflationary pressure from the increase in performance year over year, yet people still have bought computers, and the industry has still prospered despite this. Likewise, civilization was largely built on hard money economies, and prospered, despite the difficulty of debasing within them. It has largely fallen under soft money conditions, as in the the Weimar Republic, or the debasement of the late Roman Empire. Note that this "deflation is bad" orthodoxy is propagated by the same economic regime that embraces inflation as beneficial, and profits from the printing of money.
Closi 6y ago
Bitcoin doesn't stop bubbles or protect you from one any more than investment in another asset - in fact it's more than likely a bubble itself.
- Empact 6y ago
  The bubbles I've observed have been a product of or exacerbated by artificially low interest rates and the money printing that enables them. If Bitcoin achieves its goal, it will remove or reduce the power of the government to print money and otherwise set interest rates, which will enable market-based interest rates to emerge.