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> berated Where did it say "berated"?. Outside of the stance "I've already decided I distrust anything Amazon does", what facts do we have that this "live feed

> berated Where did it say "berated"?. Outside of the stance "I've already decided I distrust anything Amazon does", what facts do we have that this "live feed" is anything more then a welfare checkin to make sure the driver is OK, or something else non-malicious and sincerely focused on safety? And as I posed in another comment, what incentive does Amazon have for it to be anything other than this, given that if it really does lead to more privacy intrusions, many more staff will quit and regulators would take action?

bostonsre 6y ago
> And as I posed in another comment, what incentive does Amazon have for it to be anything other than this, given that if it really does lead to more privacy intrusions, many more staff will quit and regulators would take action? They could have calculated that productivity increases due to the nanny cam were worth any blowback from unhappy workers and regulators. At this point the workers don't trust what Amazon says. The cameras will be viewed by workers with mistrust and they will assume they are being watched constantly and the "safety" purpose is bs. Amazon probably knows this, even if they intend it to actually be used for safety. This is the same reason some convenience stores put up fake cameras. They are a beurocratic organization with middle managers doing everything they can to squeeze productivity gains out everything and every one. There may be some good guys in there but those good guys don't have their careers grow. The managers without morals rise to the top while shit rolls down hill and the guys on the bottom get worse and worse treatment.
- tomhoward 6y ago
  > They could have calculated that productivity increases due to the nanny cam were worth any blowback from unhappy workers and regulators That makes no sense. Deeply/continually unhappy workers are less productive, especially if they leave. And action from regulators is bad for productivity, especially when laws are enforced via court action/penalties or when new laws imposed. This line of commentary is just-so narrative to uphold the position that everything Amazon does is evil. But it doesn't demonstrate that Amazon actually has the incentive to do said evil things.
  - Arainach 6y ago
    Amazon measures all of the numbers and fires its "less productive" workers. There's a never ending supply of desperately poor people, so they have a constant stream of people to work as fast as physically possible until they burn out. This is baked into their entire philosophy - it applies to warehouse workers, drivers, and software engineers.
    - tomhoward 6y ago
      "There's a never ending supply of desperately poor people" There is such a thing as government-mandated conditions in most places even in the US (I'm not from the US but I'm not that stupid), and even if not, at a certain point people are better off doing nothing than being so badly abused, and there is always a better option below a certain level of mistreatment. This commentary is just-so narrative, not serious discussion. I'm bouncing out for some sleep, thanks.
      - imagica 6y ago
        > There is such a thing as government-mandated conditions in most places even in the US ( Government-mandated conditions are on paper only, are often abused and the boundaries are always stretched out to the breaking point. > at a certain point people are better off doing nothing than being so badly abused, and there is always a better option below a certain level of mistreatment. You're underestimating the amount of rampant poverty and unemployment without benefits in the US. You're un
      - bostonsre 6y ago
        What options does a warehouse worker or a package delivery guy have if they want to care for a family to the best of their ability. These jobs are tough but they pay slightly not than most. Going to work for McDonald's and earning 25k a year does not put enough food on the table. People grit their teeth and bare it because they have no other recourse or options. > This commentary is just-so narrative, not serious discussion. Why don't you engage in a discussion to try to see the other side's opinion. Shouting "It's a narrative" and plugging your ears is not some trump card that automatically wins an argument. Others and myself are not some socialist cabal secretly trying to take down capitalism. I get paid way too much for stuff that doesn't feel like a real job. I love capitalism but don't see why we can't have a softer flavor of it. It is tough on the bottom rung of society and companies like Amazon have the resources to make lots of people happy and content with their jobs.
rapnie 6y ago
> But I just don't see the cause for outrage over this - as long as the system really is focused on the safety of drivers and other road users. > The reference to AI in the article makes it sound dystopian, but isn't this potentially better, if it just means that computation is used to detect any issues rather than having humans watching their fellow workers? > [..] what incentive does Amazon have for it to be anything other than this What Amazon (and others doing similar stuff) does is create something of a Panopticon [0] to enforce proper behavior: > Although it is physically impossible for the single guard to observe all the inmates' cells at once, the fact that the inmates cannot know when they are being watched means that they are motivated to act as though they are being watched at all times. Thus, the inmates are effectively compelled to regulate their own behaviour. > In 1965 the conservative historian Shirley Robin [..] argued that Bentham's pet gadget, the panopticon prison, was a device of such monstrous efficiency that it left no room for humanity. > Recent Libertarian thinkers began to regard Bentham's entire philosophy as having paved the way for totalitarian states. In this regard, as with the Panopticon, it doesn't even matter if the camera's work or there's AI involved. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon

bostonsre 6y ago

> And as I posed in another comment, what incentive does Amazon have for it to be anything other than this, given that if it really does lead to more privacy intrusions, many more staff will quit and regulators would take action? They could have calculated that productivity increases due to the nanny cam were worth any blowback from unhappy workers and regulators. At this point the workers don't trust what Amazon says. The cameras will be viewed by workers with mistrust and they will assume they are being watched constantly and the "safety" purpose is bs. Amazon probably knows this, even if they intend it to actually be used for safety. This is the same reason some convenience stores put up fake cameras. They are a beurocratic organization with middle managers doing everything they can to squeeze productivity gains out everything and every one. There may be some good guys in there but those good guys don't have their careers grow. The managers without morals rise to the top while shit rolls down hill and the guys on the bottom get worse and worse treatment.

tomhoward 6y ago
> They could have calculated that productivity increases due to the nanny cam were worth any blowback from unhappy workers and regulators That makes no sense. Deeply/continually unhappy workers are less productive, especially if they leave. And action from regulators is bad for productivity, especially when laws are enforced via court action/penalties or when new laws imposed. This line of commentary is just-so narrative to uphold the position that everything Amazon does is evil. But it doesn't demonstrate that Amazon actually has the incentive to do said evil things.
- Arainach 6y ago
  Amazon measures all of the numbers and fires its "less productive" workers. There's a never ending supply of desperately poor people, so they have a constant stream of people to work as fast as physically possible until they burn out. This is baked into their entire philosophy - it applies to warehouse workers, drivers, and software engineers.
  - tomhoward 6y ago
    "There's a never ending supply of desperately poor people" There is such a thing as government-mandated conditions in most places even in the US (I'm not from the US but I'm not that stupid), and even if not, at a certain point people are better off doing nothing than being so badly abused, and there is always a better option below a certain level of mistreatment. This commentary is just-so narrative, not serious discussion. I'm bouncing out for some sleep, thanks.
    - imagica 6y ago
      > There is such a thing as government-mandated conditions in most places even in the US ( Government-mandated conditions are on paper only, are often abused and the boundaries are always stretched out to the breaking point. > at a certain point people are better off doing nothing than being so badly abused, and there is always a better option below a certain level of mistreatment. You're underestimating the amount of rampant poverty and unemployment without benefits in the US. You're un
    - bostonsre 6y ago
      What options does a warehouse worker or a package delivery guy have if they want to care for a family to the best of their ability. These jobs are tough but they pay slightly not than most. Going to work for McDonald's and earning 25k a year does not put enough food on the table. People grit their teeth and bare it because they have no other recourse or options. > This commentary is just-so narrative, not serious discussion. Why don't you engage in a discussion to try to see the other side's opinion. Shouting "It's a narrative" and plugging your ears is not some trump card that automatically wins an argument. Others and myself are not some socialist cabal secretly trying to take down capitalism. I get paid way too much for stuff that doesn't feel like a real job. I love capitalism but don't see why we can't have a softer flavor of it. It is tough on the bottom rung of society and companies like Amazon have the resources to make lots of people happy and content with their jobs.

rapnie 6y ago

> But I just don't see the cause for outrage over this - as long as the system really is focused on the safety of drivers and other road users. > The reference to AI in the article makes it sound dystopian, but isn't this potentially better, if it just means that computation is used to detect any issues rather than having humans watching their fellow workers? > [..] what incentive does Amazon have for it to be anything other than this What Amazon (and others doing similar stuff) does is create something of a Panopticon [0] to enforce proper behavior: > Although it is physically impossible for the single guard to observe all the inmates' cells at once, the fact that the inmates cannot know when they are being watched means that they are motivated to act as though they are being watched at all times. Thus, the inmates are effectively compelled to regulate their own behaviour. > In 1965 the conservative historian Shirley Robin [..] argued that Bentham's pet gadget, the panopticon prison, was a device of such monstrous efficiency that it left no room for humanity. > Recent Libertarian thinkers began to regard Bentham's entire philosophy as having paved the way for totalitarian states. In this regard, as with the Panopticon, it doesn't even matter if the camera's work or there's AI involved. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon