8 ms·

I studied theology for a few years before giving up religion entirely. The most disappointing aspect of 'modern' Christianity to me is how few of its supposed

I studied theology for a few years before giving up religion entirely. The most disappointing aspect of 'modern' Christianity to me is how few of its supposed adherents have bothered to consciously choose a system and learn more about it, or even try to understand the one(s) they were brought up with. The trend seems to be that people first decide what's most personally appealing to believe, then label themselves whatever fits with their in-group, with almost no attempt to connect the two. From a philosophical perspective, there is a lot of reinventing the wheel (poorly) going on, and very little recognition that carefully thought out frameworks which considered every possible angle and relentlessly sought internal logical consistency have existed for hundreds of years.

brodouevencode 6y ago
I think you can easily sub in any political party for Christianity and the same will hold true.
- ed25519FUUU 6y ago
  The desire for identity and “to belong” is exceptionally powerful.
  - mountainriver 6y ago
    From an evolutionary standpoint it makes perfect sense, but there are some unfortunate downsides
  - hinkley 6y ago
    People need to get off of social media and get more hobbies. Go belong to a needlepoint club or mushroom hunters or basket weaving.
    - dragontamer 6y ago
      What about people meet on Sundays to talk about ancient philosophy, with a few long-term goals such as ending hunger by working in food kitchens and raising money for other charitable causes? If these Sunday meetup clubs get large enough, maybe they can run hospitals or schools. I think we should call the leaders of such Sunday Meetup groups "Priests", or maybe "Ministers".
      - smitty1e 6y ago
        That's like a Linux User Group meeting to talk about anything but an OS Kernel.
      - BrandoElFollito 6y ago
        That would be great. I read that there are secular masses that actually do that. The ones you mentioned do not meet to talk about ancient philosophy. They meet to talk about an imaginary entity you come to kneel to and pray it does not bring the end of the world. The managers of these groups also expect the participants to tell them what they did wrong (confession) and when they hear that a guy is going to rape someone because he feels that need, they cowardly cover for him. Mostly because they put their comfort above the life of someone else (secret of confession). So yeah, that wood be good but for now this is just a meeting of people who learned this from their parents and do not want to think about the whole craziness of the idea. The charity work is nice, though.
    - Buttons840 6y ago
      Speaking of philosophy. Didn't the Buddha say "you won't be punished for your unhealthy focus on politics, you will be punished by your unhealthy focus on politics"? Seriously, politics plus social media equals missery. I have an older family member who, I was surprised to learn, has forgotten pets he cared for for years and fun family events of the past, but he certainly remembers every political slight and wrong people in Washington DC have experienced. As if an evil spell was cast to replace all happy memories with aggravating memories. (And I think the answer is no, the Buddha did not say that.)
jollofricepeas 6y ago
Good point. The social aspect seems to be the biggest motivating factor for what makes people either join or leave a religion. People often choose to stop a belief because of the failings of their parents, spiritual leader, etc without thought to their direct relationship with their deity and the belief system itself. - In other words, if you are Catholic and your priest was a criminal does that mean the next logical step is to become an atheist? - If you’re an atheist and science says that the inherent beauty of laws of the universe means that it is a possibility that our world was engineered by powerful being(s) does that mean you should jump your belief all the way to creationism?
- paulryanrogers 6y ago
  > People often choose to stop a belief because of the failings of their parents, spiritual leader, etc without thought to their direct relationship with their deity and the belief system itself. IME and those I've read about on various ex Reddit subs is that many stop believing because the evidence is non-existent. Learning about the hypocrisy of leadership may push people out of certain organizations, but to stop believing is another thing.
  - implements 6y ago
    Lack of evidence for divine Creation, lack of evidence that a particular “revealed truth” is supernatural in origin, moral teachings of a particular faith incompatible with own morals derived from lived experience, religion systematically corrupt or staffed by people of dubious character ...
    - jollofricepeas 6y ago
      For those that become “religious” for social reasons it makes complete sense to leave because of dubious characters but I would argue that all social groups/organizations have dubious characters. For those that become “religious” and see it as their personal mission and spiritual relationship, then the social part has scant importance because the hypocrisy is that of other corruptible individuals.
chengiz 6y ago
There is nothing modern about what you say; there is no internal logical consistency in any religion which is why you have the fanatically orthodox and the ultra liberal coexist in every religion - each one sure of their moral superiority, of their interpretation of the code. People have always been able to defend what they believe in, what they grew up with etc. If anything the divisions have grown more peaceful over the years. The trend is that due to the internet and social media, you do not have to follow your tradition, you can find other things, which would be in general a good thing, except it doesnt do anything to bring people together, and it also has the effect of giving the worst of them a voice and a following which could have been suppressed by more moderate voices in the pre internet era.
- slfnflctd 6y ago
  I would agree with most of this. Blaming social media is a dead horse now, but not without good reasons. Most of what I'm bemoaning here boils down to frustration with the apparent increase in anti-intellectualism, and how it pervades everything. If you don't understand enough of what's been discussed before, you can't even have a coherent conversation. There are all too many incoherent conversations going on.

brodouevencode 6y ago

I think you can easily sub in any political party for Christianity and the same will hold true.

ed25519FUUU 6y ago
The desire for identity and “to belong” is exceptionally powerful.
- mountainriver 6y ago
  From an evolutionary standpoint it makes perfect sense, but there are some unfortunate downsides
- hinkley 6y ago
  People need to get off of social media and get more hobbies. Go belong to a needlepoint club or mushroom hunters or basket weaving.
  - dragontamer 6y ago
    What about people meet on Sundays to talk about ancient philosophy, with a few long-term goals such as ending hunger by working in food kitchens and raising money for other charitable causes? If these Sunday meetup clubs get large enough, maybe they can run hospitals or schools. I think we should call the leaders of such Sunday Meetup groups "Priests", or maybe "Ministers".
    - smitty1e 6y ago
      That's like a Linux User Group meeting to talk about anything but an OS Kernel.
    - BrandoElFollito 6y ago
      That would be great. I read that there are secular masses that actually do that. The ones you mentioned do not meet to talk about ancient philosophy. They meet to talk about an imaginary entity you come to kneel to and pray it does not bring the end of the world. The managers of these groups also expect the participants to tell them what they did wrong (confession) and when they hear that a guy is going to rape someone because he feels that need, they cowardly cover for him. Mostly because they put their comfort above the life of someone else (secret of confession). So yeah, that wood be good but for now this is just a meeting of people who learned this from their parents and do not want to think about the whole craziness of the idea. The charity work is nice, though.
  - Buttons840 6y ago
    Speaking of philosophy. Didn't the Buddha say "you won't be punished for your unhealthy focus on politics, you will be punished by your unhealthy focus on politics"? Seriously, politics plus social media equals missery. I have an older family member who, I was surprised to learn, has forgotten pets he cared for for years and fun family events of the past, but he certainly remembers every political slight and wrong people in Washington DC have experienced. As if an evil spell was cast to replace all happy memories with aggravating memories. (And I think the answer is no, the Buddha did not say that.)

jollofricepeas 6y ago

Good point. The social aspect seems to be the biggest motivating factor for what makes people either join or leave a religion. People often choose to stop a belief because of the failings of their parents, spiritual leader, etc without thought to their direct relationship with their deity and the belief system itself. - In other words, if you are Catholic and your priest was a criminal does that mean the next logical step is to become an atheist? - If you’re an atheist and science says that the inherent beauty of laws of the universe means that it is a possibility that our world was engineered by powerful being(s) does that mean you should jump your belief all the way to creationism?

paulryanrogers 6y ago
> People often choose to stop a belief because of the failings of their parents, spiritual leader, etc without thought to their direct relationship with their deity and the belief system itself. IME and those I've read about on various ex Reddit subs is that many stop believing because the evidence is non-existent. Learning about the hypocrisy of leadership may push people out of certain organizations, but to stop believing is another thing.
- implements 6y ago
  Lack of evidence for divine Creation, lack of evidence that a particular “revealed truth” is supernatural in origin, moral teachings of a particular faith incompatible with own morals derived from lived experience, religion systematically corrupt or staffed by people of dubious character ...
  - jollofricepeas 6y ago
    For those that become “religious” for social reasons it makes complete sense to leave because of dubious characters but I would argue that all social groups/organizations have dubious characters. For those that become “religious” and see it as their personal mission and spiritual relationship, then the social part has scant importance because the hypocrisy is that of other corruptible individuals.

chengiz 6y ago

There is nothing modern about what you say; there is no internal logical consistency in any religion which is why you have the fanatically orthodox and the ultra liberal coexist in every religion - each one sure of their moral superiority, of their interpretation of the code. People have always been able to defend what they believe in, what they grew up with etc. If anything the divisions have grown more peaceful over the years. The trend is that due to the internet and social media, you do not have to follow your tradition, you can find other things, which would be in general a good thing, except it doesnt do anything to bring people together, and it also has the effect of giving the worst of them a voice and a following which could have been suppressed by more moderate voices in the pre internet era.

slfnflctd 6y ago
I would agree with most of this. Blaming social media is a dead horse now, but not without good reasons. Most of what I'm bemoaning here boils down to frustration with the apparent increase in anti-intellectualism, and how it pervades everything. If you don't understand enough of what's been discussed before, you can't even have a coherent conversation. There are all too many incoherent conversations going on.