7 ms·

“The Tor Project is joining calls for Richard M. Stallman to be removed [...]"

12 points by gerikson 6y ago

outsomnia 6y ago
What other topics do these guys in local positions of power feel they get to decide the correctness of for everyone else?
smt88 6y ago
I know HN is generally very pro-Stallman on this issue, but I just read the (fully linked and cited) substance[1] of his behavior for the first time. I'm now fully on-board with his resignation. It would be impossible to be comfortable working with him, especially if you had children. There's no way his presence on any team does not drive people away and tarnish the team's reputation. 1. https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix
- meribold 6y ago
  Have you read the document [1] they cite as evidence that Stallman is transphobic? This is what it actually says: > Please think about how to treat other participants with respect, especially when you disagree with them. For instance, call them by the names they use, and honor their preferences about their gender identity. > Honoring people's preferences about gender identity includes not referring to them in ways that conflict with that identity. For instance, not to use pronouns for them that conflict with it. There are several ways to avoid that; one way is to use gender-neutral pronouns, since they don't conflict with any possible gender identity. That apparently makes Stallman a transphobe. [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20210325014959/https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html https://web.archive.org/web/20210325014959/https://www.gnu.o...
  - smt88 6y ago
    I have read that. Before yesterday, it was all I had read. Have you read the article I linked? It includes many repulsive statements that have nothing to do with trans issues. There are many instances where Stallman defended pedophilia, pedophiles, and child molestation, usually claiming that all of these things are fine if the child appears to consent. He also criticizes people who raise children with Down's syndrome and suggests that a child with Down's syndrome is a "pet". There are lots of people in this world with a loved one with Down's syndrome or with a history of being abused as a child. How could those people work with him? Hell, I wouldn't even want him around my children.
    - meribold 6y ago
      I agree with you that Stallman's proclivity toward making tactless and contentious statements at the worst possible times on topics that have nothing to do with Free Software make him a poor spokesperson for the FSF. I haven't yet made up my mind on whether they should bar him from being a board member. Yet, I find it extremely questionable that the authors of <https://rms-open-letter.github.io https://rms-open-letter.github.io> decided to throw in an accusation of transphobia with no apparent basis and for no apparent reason. It's a serious accusation and enough reason for me not to sign this letter. I'm not signing the support letter [1] either. I feel no need to hop on either of these bandwagons. For what it's worth, Stallman's latest statement on pedophilia seems to be this: > Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong about sex between an adult and a child, if the child accepted it. > Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to understand how sex with a child can harm per psychologically. This changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should not do that. I am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to understand why. I can forgive the previous statements given that RMS has never done anything remotely approximating acting them out, that they've all been made quite long ago (I believe), and that RMS likely has some form of Asperger's. [1]: https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/
      - krapp 6y ago
        >Yet, I find it extremely questionable that the authors of <https://rms-open-letter.github.io https://rms-open-letter.github.io> decided to throw in an accusation of transphobia with no apparent basis and for no apparent reason. They clearly explain the basis (Stallman's beliefs about using pronouns.) You may disagree about their reasoning, but it's disingenuous to act as if they "threw it in for no apparent reason."
        meribold 6y ago
        I got carried away there, but at the very least they don't explain why [1] is transphobic and are generally setting the bar for transphobia quite low. There are even transgender persons that came out in support of Stallman. I find several of the personal accounts criticizing Stallman's conduct to be compelling evidence against him, and I think those accounts can stand on their own without throwing in transphobia. [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20210325014959/https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html https://web.archive.org/web/20210325014959/https://www.gnu.o...
- enriquto 6y ago
  > It would be impossible to be comfortable working with him, especially if you had children. Why? I have two kids and if RMS ever comes back to talk at my lab, I'm definitely bringing them to see him!
selfishgene 6y ago
Both MIT and Harvard have admitted to helping Jeffrey Epstein avoid prosecution on federal racketeering charges for the sex-trafficking of minors after they were exposed by whistle-blowers at both of these institutions. Not sure why it would be appropriate then to exclude Stallman from serving on the Board of the FSF while allowing Rafael Reif, for example, to remain president of MIT after sending a personally signed "thank-you note" to one of the most notorious alleged sex-traffickers and convicted child-rapists in US history: https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstein-affair-president-rafael-reif-should-not-running-mit/C3weZQW2qtw6qbEgFkNFJO/story.html https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei... Nor would it be any more appropriate to allow Mr. Seth Lloyd back onto the MIT campus with just a slap on the wrist: https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op-ed https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op... Or Mr. Martin "Punishment Serves No Noble Purpose" Nowak for that matter either: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/26/metro/harvard-sanctions-professor-with-close-jeffrey-epstein-ties-closes-program-he-ran/ https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/26/metro/harvard-sanctio... This hacker news thread on Nowak is worth reading again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25442060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25442060 So why has nobody drafted petitions to cancel Rafael Reif, Benedict "Dick" Gross, Alan "Dershbag" Dershowitz, Martin Nowak, Steven Pinker, Seth Lloyd, Neri Oxman, Frank Wilczek, and all of the other pedophilia-supporting two-faced phonies that attended Edge Foundation dinners hosted by the convicted child rapist and/or visited him on "Pedophile Isle," where FBI reportedly found instruction manuals that Mr. Epstein had ordered on Amazon that describe how to create a so-called "sex slave," in addition to video tapes containing child pornography that he allegedly recorded using secret cameras that were installed throughout his various residences? Ito resigned. Kosslyn has repeatdly resigned as he tried to run with his tail between his legs from one university to the next as soon as he started to feel the heat (thanks to some anonymous emails). It's time to cancel the rest of them too ... and that now includes Claudine Gay at Harvard and Martin Schmidt at MIT who signed off on allowing Nowak and Lloyd to return to their respective campuses !!!
- Zuider 6y ago
  Where is the presumption of innocence, where accusations of guilt must pass a burden of proof? Stallman is the least 'guilty' of the people you mention, since his 'crimes' consist of the pedantic quibbling over definitions that are typical of an individual suffering from Asperger's syndrome. They are, of course, 'wooden-eared' and easily misrepresented by persons of bad faith such as the petitioners linked above. There is zero positive evidence that he advocates, or ever participated in pedophilia. I put 'guilty' in scare-quotes because, unless there is solid evidence to the contrary, there is only guilt by association involved. Epstein was a big donor, especially to research programs in physics, and that is the basis of their association with him.
forgotmypw17 6y ago
I had the opportunity and blessing to meet Dr. Stallman in person on several occasions while volunteering at FSF. I think we've met a total of about 10 times, and spent a total of about 10-20 hours within each other's presence. During this time, I have never, not even once, observed rms doing anything questionable, except perhaps going barefoot in the office, which I was inspired by and followed suit. (I washed my feet so that they wouldn't smell.) In fact, on one occasion, Dr. Stallman told me that a joke I had told was mean and not funny, which was probably true, but such is Russian humor. In my internal mental models, it affects the reputation of those working much more against rms more than rms himself. Combined with several questionable choices in the past, e.g. deprecating human-readable onion addresses, I personally no longer consider Tor Project to be a credible organization.
- forgotmypw17 6y ago
  In case anyone wants to know the joke, here it is, told in today's language. A guy who had never had sex before decided to finally go for it, and went at it with a sex worker. As it goes sometimes, he fell in love with her, and asked for her hand in marriage. She said, I don't think it is going to work, because you are so sexually inexperienced. But the guy pleaded with her, and wouldn't leave her alone, so to get him off her back, she told him, "Go to the woods at the side of the village, there's a tree with a hole in it. Make love to that hole for a year, then I'll marry you." So a year later, the guy returns to ask her again. She says, Alright, let's see what you've got, and if you can satisfy me, I'll marry you. And having said this, she takes off her clothes, and turns her back to him, gets on her knees and sticks her butt out at him. And at this, the guy lifts his leg, and front-kicks her butt so hard, she flies forward and drops to the floor. "What the fuck are you doing, man?!" she yells at him? And he replies, "just making sure there's no bees inside."
- selfishgene 6y ago
  https://futurism.com/the-byte/mit-scientist-stallman-pedophilia https://futurism.com/the-byte/mit-scientist-stallman-pedophi... He's never adequately explained from what I can tell why he made those statements in the first place. If he could provide that additional insight, I think it would help others evaluate the sincerity of his apology. The question today that I have for Mr. Stallman, whom many of us hold in the highest regard for his role in the free software movement, is a very frank one: Were his remarks in support of pedophilia designed to persuade Mr. Epstein to donate part of his $500 million estate to the Free Software Foundation, much like he observed role-models such as MIT president Rafael Reif do for Mr. Epstein when Dr. Reif sent Mr. Epstein a personally signed thank-you note for his donation to the Media Lab, or colleagues like Martin Nowak do for Mr. Epstein when Dr. Nowak created a web page on a university website and an office in his department for a convicted child-rapist in exchange for tens of millions of dollars in donations that were promised to his academic program at Harvard and hundreds of millions of dollars in donations, often laundered through Epstein's fellow billionaire pedophile friends like Les Wexner and Glenn Dubin, to Harvard University, where Mr. Nowak is employed as a math professor?
foolzcrow 6y ago
They care more about woke politics then about tor or foss or even science. Fake diversity is disgusting. Stallman is a good dude. Body dismorphia is real and can be very successfully treated. Trust the science.
foolzcrow 6y ago
They care more about woke politics then tor or foss or science fpr that matter. Fake diversity is disgusting.
Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
It is telling that these cowards from TOR have limited replies to that tweet. It is a pity that such important project is in such bad hands. Anyway, just signed rms support letter [1] and suggest you do the same. [1]: https://github.com/rms-support-letter/rms-support-letter.github.io https://github.com/rms-support-letter/rms-support-letter.git...
meribold 6y ago
I find the evidence presented by <https://rms-open-letter.github.io https://rms-open-letter.github.io> for Stallman being transphobic absurd. They are citing this document [1]. Here's what it actually says: > Please think about how to treat other participants with respect, especially when you disagree with them. For instance, call them by the names they use, and honor their preferences about their gender identity. > Honoring people's preferences about gender identity includes not referring to them in ways that conflict with that identity. For instance, not to use pronouns for them that conflict with it. There are several ways to avoid that; one way is to use gender-neutral pronouns, since they don't conflict with any possible gender identity. Those statements apparently make Stallman a transphobe. [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20210325014959/https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html https://web.archive.org/web/20210325014959/https://www.gnu.o...

12 points by gerikson 6y ago

What other topics do these guys in local positions of power feel they get to decide the correctness of for everyone else?

smt88 6y ago

I know HN is generally very pro-Stallman on this issue, but I just read the (fully linked and cited) substance[1] of his behavior for the first time. I'm now fully on-board with his resignation. It would be impossible to be comfortable working with him, especially if you had children. There's no way his presence on any team does not drive people away and tarnish the team's reputation. 1. https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix https://rms-open-letter.github.io/appendix

meribold 6y ago
Have you read the document [1] they cite as evidence that Stallman is transphobic? This is what it actually says: > Please think about how to treat other participants with respect, especially when you disagree with them. For instance, call them by the names they use, and honor their preferences about their gender identity. > Honoring people's preferences about gender identity includes not referring to them in ways that conflict with that identity. For instance, not to use pronouns for them that conflict with it. There are several ways to avoid that; one way is to use gender-neutral pronouns, since they don't conflict with any possible gender identity. That apparently makes Stallman a transphobe. [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20210325014959/https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html https://web.archive.org/web/20210325014959/https://www.gnu.o...
- smt88 6y ago
  I have read that. Before yesterday, it was all I had read. Have you read the article I linked? It includes many repulsive statements that have nothing to do with trans issues. There are many instances where Stallman defended pedophilia, pedophiles, and child molestation, usually claiming that all of these things are fine if the child appears to consent. He also criticizes people who raise children with Down's syndrome and suggests that a child with Down's syndrome is a "pet". There are lots of people in this world with a loved one with Down's syndrome or with a history of being abused as a child. How could those people work with him? Hell, I wouldn't even want him around my children.
  - meribold 6y ago
    I agree with you that Stallman's proclivity toward making tactless and contentious statements at the worst possible times on topics that have nothing to do with Free Software make him a poor spokesperson for the FSF. I haven't yet made up my mind on whether they should bar him from being a board member. Yet, I find it extremely questionable that the authors of <https://rms-open-letter.github.io https://rms-open-letter.github.io> decided to throw in an accusation of transphobia with no apparent basis and for no apparent reason. It's a serious accusation and enough reason for me not to sign this letter. I'm not signing the support letter [1] either. I feel no need to hop on either of these bandwagons. For what it's worth, Stallman's latest statement on pedophilia seems to be this: > Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong about sex between an adult and a child, if the child accepted it. > Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to understand how sex with a child can harm per psychologically. This changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should not do that. I am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to understand why. I can forgive the previous statements given that RMS has never done anything remotely approximating acting them out, that they've all been made quite long ago (I believe), and that RMS likely has some form of Asperger's. [1]: https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/
    - krapp 6y ago
      >Yet, I find it extremely questionable that the authors of <https://rms-open-letter.github.io https://rms-open-letter.github.io> decided to throw in an accusation of transphobia with no apparent basis and for no apparent reason. They clearly explain the basis (Stallman's beliefs about using pronouns.) You may disagree about their reasoning, but it's disingenuous to act as if they "threw it in for no apparent reason."
      - meribold 6y ago
        I got carried away there, but at the very least they don't explain why [1] is transphobic and are generally setting the bar for transphobia quite low. There are even transgender persons that came out in support of Stallman. I find several of the personal accounts criticizing Stallman's conduct to be compelling evidence against him, and I think those accounts can stand on their own without throwing in transphobia. [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20210325014959/https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html https://web.archive.org/web/20210325014959/https://www.gnu.o...
enriquto 6y ago
> It would be impossible to be comfortable working with him, especially if you had children. Why? I have two kids and if RMS ever comes back to talk at my lab, I'm definitely bringing them to see him!

selfishgene 6y ago

Both MIT and Harvard have admitted to helping Jeffrey Epstein avoid prosecution on federal racketeering charges for the sex-trafficking of minors after they were exposed by whistle-blowers at both of these institutions. Not sure why it would be appropriate then to exclude Stallman from serving on the Board of the FSF while allowing Rafael Reif, for example, to remain president of MIT after sending a personally signed "thank-you note" to one of the most notorious alleged sex-traffickers and convicted child-rapists in US history: https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstein-affair-president-rafael-reif-should-not-running-mit/C3weZQW2qtw6qbEgFkNFJO/story.html https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei... Nor would it be any more appropriate to allow Mr. Seth Lloyd back onto the MIT campus with just a slap on the wrist: https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op-ed https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op... Or Mr. Martin "Punishment Serves No Noble Purpose" Nowak for that matter either: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/26/metro/harvard-sanctions-professor-with-close-jeffrey-epstein-ties-closes-program-he-ran/ https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/26/metro/harvard-sanctio... This hacker news thread on Nowak is worth reading again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25442060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25442060 So why has nobody drafted petitions to cancel Rafael Reif, Benedict "Dick" Gross, Alan "Dershbag" Dershowitz, Martin Nowak, Steven Pinker, Seth Lloyd, Neri Oxman, Frank Wilczek, and all of the other pedophilia-supporting two-faced phonies that attended Edge Foundation dinners hosted by the convicted child rapist and/or visited him on "Pedophile Isle," where FBI reportedly found instruction manuals that Mr. Epstein had ordered on Amazon that describe how to create a so-called "sex slave," in addition to video tapes containing child pornography that he allegedly recorded using secret cameras that were installed throughout his various residences? Ito resigned. Kosslyn has repeatdly resigned as he tried to run with his tail between his legs from one university to the next as soon as he started to feel the heat (thanks to some anonymous emails). It's time to cancel the rest of them too ... and that now includes Claudine Gay at Harvard and Martin Schmidt at MIT who signed off on allowing Nowak and Lloyd to return to their respective campuses !!!

Zuider 6y ago
Where is the presumption of innocence, where accusations of guilt must pass a burden of proof? Stallman is the least 'guilty' of the people you mention, since his 'crimes' consist of the pedantic quibbling over definitions that are typical of an individual suffering from Asperger's syndrome. They are, of course, 'wooden-eared' and easily misrepresented by persons of bad faith such as the petitioners linked above. There is zero positive evidence that he advocates, or ever participated in pedophilia. I put 'guilty' in scare-quotes because, unless there is solid evidence to the contrary, there is only guilt by association involved. Epstein was a big donor, especially to research programs in physics, and that is the basis of their association with him.

forgotmypw17 6y ago

I had the opportunity and blessing to meet Dr. Stallman in person on several occasions while volunteering at FSF. I think we've met a total of about 10 times, and spent a total of about 10-20 hours within each other's presence. During this time, I have never, not even once, observed rms doing anything questionable, except perhaps going barefoot in the office, which I was inspired by and followed suit. (I washed my feet so that they wouldn't smell.) In fact, on one occasion, Dr. Stallman told me that a joke I had told was mean and not funny, which was probably true, but such is Russian humor. In my internal mental models, it affects the reputation of those working much more against rms more than rms himself. Combined with several questionable choices in the past, e.g. deprecating human-readable onion addresses, I personally no longer consider Tor Project to be a credible organization.

forgotmypw17 6y ago
In case anyone wants to know the joke, here it is, told in today's language. A guy who had never had sex before decided to finally go for it, and went at it with a sex worker. As it goes sometimes, he fell in love with her, and asked for her hand in marriage. She said, I don't think it is going to work, because you are so sexually inexperienced. But the guy pleaded with her, and wouldn't leave her alone, so to get him off her back, she told him, "Go to the woods at the side of the village, there's a tree with a hole in it. Make love to that hole for a year, then I'll marry you." So a year later, the guy returns to ask her again. She says, Alright, let's see what you've got, and if you can satisfy me, I'll marry you. And having said this, she takes off her clothes, and turns her back to him, gets on her knees and sticks her butt out at him. And at this, the guy lifts his leg, and front-kicks her butt so hard, she flies forward and drops to the floor. "What the fuck are you doing, man?!" she yells at him? And he replies, "just making sure there's no bees inside."
selfishgene 6y ago
https://futurism.com/the-byte/mit-scientist-stallman-pedophilia https://futurism.com/the-byte/mit-scientist-stallman-pedophi... He's never adequately explained from what I can tell why he made those statements in the first place. If he could provide that additional insight, I think it would help others evaluate the sincerity of his apology. The question today that I have for Mr. Stallman, whom many of us hold in the highest regard for his role in the free software movement, is a very frank one: Were his remarks in support of pedophilia designed to persuade Mr. Epstein to donate part of his $500 million estate to the Free Software Foundation, much like he observed role-models such as MIT president Rafael Reif do for Mr. Epstein when Dr. Reif sent Mr. Epstein a personally signed thank-you note for his donation to the Media Lab, or colleagues like Martin Nowak do for Mr. Epstein when Dr. Nowak created a web page on a university website and an office in his department for a convicted child-rapist in exchange for tens of millions of dollars in donations that were promised to his academic program at Harvard and hundreds of millions of dollars in donations, often laundered through Epstein's fellow billionaire pedophile friends like Les Wexner and Glenn Dubin, to Harvard University, where Mr. Nowak is employed as a math professor?

foolzcrow 6y ago

They care more about woke politics then about tor or foss or even science. Fake diversity is disgusting. Stallman is a good dude. Body dismorphia is real and can be very successfully treated. Trust the science.

foolzcrow 6y ago

They care more about woke politics then tor or foss or science fpr that matter. Fake diversity is disgusting.

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago

It is telling that these cowards from TOR have limited replies to that tweet. It is a pity that such important project is in such bad hands. Anyway, just signed rms support letter [1] and suggest you do the same. [1]: https://github.com/rms-support-letter/rms-support-letter.github.io https://github.com/rms-support-letter/rms-support-letter.git...

meribold 6y ago

I find the evidence presented by <https://rms-open-letter.github.io https://rms-open-letter.github.io> for Stallman being transphobic absurd. They are citing this document [1]. Here's what it actually says: > Please think about how to treat other participants with respect, especially when you disagree with them. For instance, call them by the names they use, and honor their preferences about their gender identity. > Honoring people's preferences about gender identity includes not referring to them in ways that conflict with that identity. For instance, not to use pronouns for them that conflict with it. There are several ways to avoid that; one way is to use gender-neutral pronouns, since they don't conflict with any possible gender identity. Those statements apparently make Stallman a transphobe. [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20210325014959/https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html https://web.archive.org/web/20210325014959/https://www.gnu.o...