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There's a few well known ones that everyone uses. And then there's ridiculous ones, like "a murder of crows", that many people know because they're ridiculous,

There's a few well known ones that everyone uses. And then there's ridiculous ones, like "a murder of crows", that many people know because they're ridiculous, but people still don't use them. And then there's a ton that almost nobody knows, and nobody uses. In the end, it's not a big deal. Unlikely Japanese, where they really do use counters for those kinds of object. Flat things like paper, cylindrical things like beer bottles, etc etc. https://www.audubon.org/news/no-its-not-actually-murder-crows https://www.audubon.org/news/no-its-not-actually-murder-crow...

ghaff 6y ago
English uses those also to some degree: a case of beer, a carton of eggs. But, yeah, if you told me to pick up some eggs and a a carton/box of beer, I'd know what you probably wanted. (In the latter case, I might ask if you wanted a 6-pack, 12-pack, or 24.)
- mkl 6y ago
  Carton and case aren't collective nouns though. They describe the packaging. You can buy a tray of eggs or a keg or six-pack of beer.
laurieg 6y ago
English "counters" are in some way worse because they aren't consistent. Slice of bread, slice of cheese but not slice paper. To be fair, Japanese has "everday use" counters and "trivia TV show" counters.
- cowboysauce 6y ago
  I don't see how that's inconsistent. Slice is used to describe things that are cut from a larger whole, particularly for food, while paper is manufactured as sheets.
- pja 6y ago
  Not going to defend the consistency of English for a second but for that particular example: paper isn’t sliced, so it wouldn’t make sense to refer to “a slice of paper”. Obviously the standard usage of a “piece of paper” is pretty arbitrary, but slice is clearly wrong.
  - wccrawford 6y ago
    On the other hand, all 3 of those can be used with "piece of". Slice describes something that was done to it, and sheet describes its form. (As opposed to scrap or some such term.)

ghaff 6y ago

English uses those also to some degree: a case of beer, a carton of eggs. But, yeah, if you told me to pick up some eggs and a a carton/box of beer, I'd know what you probably wanted. (In the latter case, I might ask if you wanted a 6-pack, 12-pack, or 24.)

mkl 6y ago
Carton and case aren't collective nouns though. They describe the packaging. You can buy a tray of eggs or a keg or six-pack of beer.

laurieg 6y ago

English "counters" are in some way worse because they aren't consistent. Slice of bread, slice of cheese but not slice paper. To be fair, Japanese has "everday use" counters and "trivia TV show" counters.

cowboysauce 6y ago
I don't see how that's inconsistent. Slice is used to describe things that are cut from a larger whole, particularly for food, while paper is manufactured as sheets.
pja 6y ago
Not going to defend the consistency of English for a second but for that particular example: paper isn’t sliced, so it wouldn’t make sense to refer to “a slice of paper”. Obviously the standard usage of a “piece of paper” is pretty arbitrary, but slice is clearly wrong.
- wccrawford 6y ago
  On the other hand, all 3 of those can be used with "piece of". Slice describes something that was done to it, and sheet describes its form. (As opposed to scrap or some such term.)