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I do wonder what kind of company culture produces decisions like this. Multiple high-level people will have signed-off on this. They'll have sat in meetings rea

I do wonder what kind of company culture produces decisions like this. Multiple high-level people will have signed-off on this. They'll have sat in meetings reading their six page documents and nodding at eachother. I wonder if, at any point, anyone said no - this is excessive? Or that this is dehumanising? Or is it that when you get past a certain level at Amazon are you already so invested in their worldview that the way that drivers and warehouse workers are treated just seems normal? Or is there some other reason for this? I find the prospect of a world with more Bezos's and more Amazons and their dehumanising world-view genuinely frightening.

itsoktocry 6y ago
Do any of these "tech" companies that employ blue-collar workers treat them well? We have major class issues.
taurath 6y ago
The reason for this is they think of people like they think about a server farm - and not just employees but customers too.
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  The reason for this is they think of people like they think about a server farm - and not just employees but customers too This is literally true, managers refer to workers as "resources". A resource is something that you use up and then discard. At least they are in their own way being honest about it.
  - notaslave 6y ago
    Referring to me as a "resource" immediately destroys any good will I have for that person. I can no longer see them as a human from that point on wards. I refer to managers as belonging to one or a mix of the "slave trader", "parasitic" or "demonic" classes. In my 10+ years in this profession, I am yet to come across a "manager" who doesn't fall under this categorization.
  - taurath 6y ago
    HR stands for Human Resources so that’s somewhat common. It’s also common in businesses to treat their employees like that. Why’s this different? Because it’s like a return to factory line work before we had things like mandatory break times. When people are pissing in bottles because their delivery quota is so high they can’t take bathroom breaks, when every move they make is scrutinized by software, respect for the human worker’s needs is reduced even from the “human resource” perspective. The point of economic progress shouldn’t be more dehumanizion for ever cheaper products while asset prices explode.
flyinglizard 6y ago
The KPIs will improve. Maybe some of their exec compensation is even tied to these KPIs. It involves technology which is a go to solution in tech companies. It’s applied to people which are viewed as resource rather than employees, and it gets them one step closer to automation (even if Robocop style automation where a living brain is trapped between the inputs and the outputs of the machine). Eventually it’s all justified by the improvement in safety. I personally think it’s horrible. I think humans must maintain a somewhat loose inefficient environment and process to remain sane. But for those who don’t share my views, introducing such systems is an easy sell.
kmlx 6y ago
if you understand that the end goal is driverless/“automate everything” then it becomes more understandable. the current drivers are just a temp solution to this end goal.
raesene9 6y ago
It's always been a surprise to me how (generally large) companies can rationalize this kind of behaviour. I remember the first time I came across it, I saw a project that was going to install detailed monitoring on call centre workers PCs. In the business case for the software they actually put a financial benefit of this system as something like reduced employee absence due to them being better managed! There didn't seem to be any acknowledgement that the employees might find the implicit lack of trust involved in installing this kind of software a problem.
EarlKing 6y ago
It's the kind of culture that maximizes efficiency over everything without a human being ever actually examining anything. It's the sort of madness that leads to impossible delivery schedules because someone started running during their route and now the system insists everyone must run even if it means you have to piss in a bottle to make up time somewhere. No human will ever examine anything so nothing will ever get fixed.
xadhominemx 6y ago
What do you mean by “decisions like like this”? Driver monitoring had been around for a very long time and it saves lives. And I don’t know about you but my office has windows and all my colleagues can watch me work all day long.
- andyjohnson0 6y ago
  > What do you mean by “decisions like like this”? I mean the failure of empathy and respect. Think about the experience of having a camera pointing at you all the time that you work, potentially recording and/or allowing unknown people to observe you, with the complete loss of privacy that implies. And the loss of control that comes with the knowledge that the system can admonish you at any moment, possibly without any human input, for the smallest perceived infraction. Combine that with the employment insecurity that comes with this kind of job and you get the potential for an extremely stressful and abusive working environment. Would you really tolerate this level of surveillance? Pre-pandemic I worked in an office too and this is in no way equivalent to being in a workspace with a few colleagues. Neither is it comparable to gps vehicle tracking or a cab radio/phone. This is several levels past that.
- thepete2 6y ago
  1. This isn't just driver monitoring if there can be a "live feed" (and besides I'm not inclined to believe Amazon only uses it for that), driver monitoring would not need an internet connection if there was any value placed on workplace privacy. 2. Windows and cameras are very different things, one can record, the other can't. One is two-way, the other is not.

itsoktocry 6y ago

Do any of these "tech" companies that employ blue-collar workers treat them well? We have major class issues.

taurath 6y ago

The reason for this is they think of people like they think about a server farm - and not just employees but customers too.

goatinaboat 6y ago
The reason for this is they think of people like they think about a server farm - and not just employees but customers too This is literally true, managers refer to workers as "resources". A resource is something that you use up and then discard. At least they are in their own way being honest about it.
- notaslave 6y ago
  Referring to me as a "resource" immediately destroys any good will I have for that person. I can no longer see them as a human from that point on wards. I refer to managers as belonging to one or a mix of the "slave trader", "parasitic" or "demonic" classes. In my 10+ years in this profession, I am yet to come across a "manager" who doesn't fall under this categorization.
- taurath 6y ago
  HR stands for Human Resources so that’s somewhat common. It’s also common in businesses to treat their employees like that. Why’s this different? Because it’s like a return to factory line work before we had things like mandatory break times. When people are pissing in bottles because their delivery quota is so high they can’t take bathroom breaks, when every move they make is scrutinized by software, respect for the human worker’s needs is reduced even from the “human resource” perspective. The point of economic progress shouldn’t be more dehumanizion for ever cheaper products while asset prices explode.

flyinglizard 6y ago

The KPIs will improve. Maybe some of their exec compensation is even tied to these KPIs. It involves technology which is a go to solution in tech companies. It’s applied to people which are viewed as resource rather than employees, and it gets them one step closer to automation (even if Robocop style automation where a living brain is trapped between the inputs and the outputs of the machine). Eventually it’s all justified by the improvement in safety. I personally think it’s horrible. I think humans must maintain a somewhat loose inefficient environment and process to remain sane. But for those who don’t share my views, introducing such systems is an easy sell.

kmlx 6y ago

if you understand that the end goal is driverless/“automate everything” then it becomes more understandable. the current drivers are just a temp solution to this end goal.

raesene9 6y ago

It's always been a surprise to me how (generally large) companies can rationalize this kind of behaviour. I remember the first time I came across it, I saw a project that was going to install detailed monitoring on call centre workers PCs. In the business case for the software they actually put a financial benefit of this system as something like reduced employee absence due to them being better managed! There didn't seem to be any acknowledgement that the employees might find the implicit lack of trust involved in installing this kind of software a problem.

EarlKing 6y ago

It's the kind of culture that maximizes efficiency over everything without a human being ever actually examining anything. It's the sort of madness that leads to impossible delivery schedules because someone started running during their route and now the system insists everyone must run even if it means you have to piss in a bottle to make up time somewhere. No human will ever examine anything so nothing will ever get fixed.

xadhominemx 6y ago

What do you mean by “decisions like like this”? Driver monitoring had been around for a very long time and it saves lives. And I don’t know about you but my office has windows and all my colleagues can watch me work all day long.

andyjohnson0 6y ago
> What do you mean by “decisions like like this”? I mean the failure of empathy and respect. Think about the experience of having a camera pointing at you all the time that you work, potentially recording and/or allowing unknown people to observe you, with the complete loss of privacy that implies. And the loss of control that comes with the knowledge that the system can admonish you at any moment, possibly without any human input, for the smallest perceived infraction. Combine that with the employment insecurity that comes with this kind of job and you get the potential for an extremely stressful and abusive working environment. Would you really tolerate this level of surveillance? Pre-pandemic I worked in an office too and this is in no way equivalent to being in a workspace with a few colleagues. Neither is it comparable to gps vehicle tracking or a cab radio/phone. This is several levels past that.
thepete2 6y ago
1. This isn't just driver monitoring if there can be a "live feed" (and besides I'm not inclined to believe Amazon only uses it for that), driver monitoring would not need an internet connection if there was any value placed on workplace privacy. 2. Windows and cameras are very different things, one can record, the other can't. One is two-way, the other is not.