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Unpopular opinion and it's not applicable to the US. Because it's unpopular, it also won't get discussed anywhere... ( My perception could obviously be wrong,

Unpopular opinion and it's not applicable to the US. Because it's unpopular, it also won't get discussed anywhere... ( My perception could obviously be wrong, bit it would get silenced immediately for bringing it up) We have a powerfull union here in Belgium ( connections with politics) and since a lot had already accomplished, they keep fighting for ridiculous things for the mere purpose of keeping themselves relevant. One of their most favorite is classifying teachers as very hard labor. Coming from a background where my dad worked 18/24 and 7/7 that stings. I know multiple teachers and I don't consider that hard labor. It's important labor, yes. But they don't have a lot of stress of other professions, not much working hours and a lot of vacation. Keeping your course up to date every year is not stressful ( if that even happens. A lot of professors copy-paste their work) Important note: depending on the students age they teach ( toddlers, middle aged, adults. I do believe it gets harder and they need to add more hours. But classifying everyone as one is a mistake in my POV.

lazyweb 6y ago
I see you're somewhat bitter about this topic. Is that a good way to present your argument though? It seems to me that this kind of sentiment ("I've experienced hardships or know people who did, so why does this group deserve better?") is quite prevalent here in germany as well. I think this is a common trope among richer countries at least, and probably one of the most effective strategies or rhetoric patterns to stall social progress. Sometimes I'm catching myself thinking along similar lines, and when I do, I'll try to step back and try to examine why I'm having these thoughts, and if there's actually an argument against having changes like this. Is there any disadvantage for me, or for anyone really?
- NicoJuicy 6y ago
  I don't think you understand my point. Labelling something incorrect is what I l'm suggesting what they are doing. To stay relevant. So members keep paying their member fees. I'm not saying it has any disadvantages to me and that shouldn't matter at all. Eg. Teachers here in middle school are labeled as a physical heavy profession and receive advantages. Explain to me what is exactly physical heavy about teaching. And it's not just that. Working for the government here in general is labeled like that and it's just a reminder of the past ( in my opinion) to keep their benefits ( early and big pension). Does that disadvantage me? Yes, because I don't have a physical profession. But neither do they. I think it's more of an insult to those that actually have a heavy physical profession and have potential health problems because of that.
  - scrose 6y ago
    It seems like the issue you’re pointing out relates to how groups get classified in a ‘physical heavy profession’, no? If the requirements are ‘low’ for that, it sounds like the label itself may be inaccurate and causing unnecessary confusion
    - NicoJuicy 6y ago
      It's not a one-time misclassified label, it's a continuous loop of unions trying to get more benefits for their "members" at any means possible. And the sensitivity of some of them would cause a disgrace for any politician to mention ( eg. because yes, teachers are important) I wouldn't call it inaccurate, but more like deceit.
    - musingsole 6y ago
      Misapplying overloaded labels to sneak into benefit pools a group doesn't belong to is the bread-and-butter of bureaucracy. Once a union has solved the problems that lead to members losing fingers, they turn to regulatory capture like this.
Anthony-G 6y ago
> But they don't have a lot of stress of other professions In Ireland there’s a reasonable respect for education – depending on socio-economic background and attitudes young people pick up from their parents – and teaching is still a stressful occupation. I’ve known a lot of secondary school teachers and unless you’re lucky enough to teach in a well-run school with a majority of students whose parents value education, there’s a huge amount of stress dealing with adolescent behaviour. In some cases, the teachers are trying to improve the lives of students whose parents who can’t cope because they’re single and struggling to provide for their family and don’t have the time for parenting. In the worst cases, the students have parents who are involved in crime or addicted to drugs. Bad management of a school by the principal and other administrators can compound. I once lived with a teacher who came home from work crying on a weekly basis because of the abuse she got from anti-social students and the lack of proper disciplinary or management backup meant that the were no serious consequences for abuse of the teacher (or the students who were there to learn). There are many teachers who regularly put up with abuse and harassment that would not be tolerated in any other profession. The “non-working” hours are spent correcting homework, preparing and refining learning materials, doing administrative paper-work to show what students are attending and/or doing work, follow-up with phone-calls to parents, etc. I know I wouldn’t want to work as a teacher if the wages were doubled: certainly, the holidays certainly don’t go far enough to balance the day-to-day stress. BTW, I wouldn’t want to be a nurse either. That’s another profession I have a massive respect for.
- NicoJuicy 6y ago
  > But they don't have a lot of stress of other professions Well, it's labeled "heavy physical activity". I did say it's important work ( eg. Respectful), I also said that's exactly why it could be political suicide by just mentioning it. I also didn't think I dispresected teachers themselves, but directed more to the unions. Also, special needs are separated and are also labeled "heavy emotional work" here. In this case, i'm talking about the heavy physical. Also, the examples you mentioned: Correcting homework is to be done during a normal workweek. Since no teacher here stands in class full-time ( ~ 26 hours in general). Contact with parents is 2 days per year during normal days ( mo-fr) Administrative paper work is done during class, at the start.

lazyweb 6y ago

I see you're somewhat bitter about this topic. Is that a good way to present your argument though? It seems to me that this kind of sentiment ("I've experienced hardships or know people who did, so why does this group deserve better?") is quite prevalent here in germany as well. I think this is a common trope among richer countries at least, and probably one of the most effective strategies or rhetoric patterns to stall social progress. Sometimes I'm catching myself thinking along similar lines, and when I do, I'll try to step back and try to examine why I'm having these thoughts, and if there's actually an argument against having changes like this. Is there any disadvantage for me, or for anyone really?

NicoJuicy 6y ago
I don't think you understand my point. Labelling something incorrect is what I l'm suggesting what they are doing. To stay relevant. So members keep paying their member fees. I'm not saying it has any disadvantages to me and that shouldn't matter at all. Eg. Teachers here in middle school are labeled as a physical heavy profession and receive advantages. Explain to me what is exactly physical heavy about teaching. And it's not just that. Working for the government here in general is labeled like that and it's just a reminder of the past ( in my opinion) to keep their benefits ( early and big pension). Does that disadvantage me? Yes, because I don't have a physical profession. But neither do they. I think it's more of an insult to those that actually have a heavy physical profession and have potential health problems because of that.
- scrose 6y ago
  It seems like the issue you’re pointing out relates to how groups get classified in a ‘physical heavy profession’, no? If the requirements are ‘low’ for that, it sounds like the label itself may be inaccurate and causing unnecessary confusion
  - NicoJuicy 6y ago
    It's not a one-time misclassified label, it's a continuous loop of unions trying to get more benefits for their "members" at any means possible. And the sensitivity of some of them would cause a disgrace for any politician to mention ( eg. because yes, teachers are important) I wouldn't call it inaccurate, but more like deceit.
  - musingsole 6y ago
    Misapplying overloaded labels to sneak into benefit pools a group doesn't belong to is the bread-and-butter of bureaucracy. Once a union has solved the problems that lead to members losing fingers, they turn to regulatory capture like this.

Anthony-G 6y ago

> But they don't have a lot of stress of other professions In Ireland there’s a reasonable respect for education – depending on socio-economic background and attitudes young people pick up from their parents – and teaching is still a stressful occupation. I’ve known a lot of secondary school teachers and unless you’re lucky enough to teach in a well-run school with a majority of students whose parents value education, there’s a huge amount of stress dealing with adolescent behaviour. In some cases, the teachers are trying to improve the lives of students whose parents who can’t cope because they’re single and struggling to provide for their family and don’t have the time for parenting. In the worst cases, the students have parents who are involved in crime or addicted to drugs. Bad management of a school by the principal and other administrators can compound. I once lived with a teacher who came home from work crying on a weekly basis because of the abuse she got from anti-social students and the lack of proper disciplinary or management backup meant that the were no serious consequences for abuse of the teacher (or the students who were there to learn). There are many teachers who regularly put up with abuse and harassment that would not be tolerated in any other profession. The “non-working” hours are spent correcting homework, preparing and refining learning materials, doing administrative paper-work to show what students are attending and/or doing work, follow-up with phone-calls to parents, etc. I know I wouldn’t want to work as a teacher if the wages were doubled: certainly, the holidays certainly don’t go far enough to balance the day-to-day stress. BTW, I wouldn’t want to be a nurse either. That’s another profession I have a massive respect for.

NicoJuicy 6y ago
> But they don't have a lot of stress of other professions Well, it's labeled "heavy physical activity". I did say it's important work ( eg. Respectful), I also said that's exactly why it could be political suicide by just mentioning it. I also didn't think I dispresected teachers themselves, but directed more to the unions. Also, special needs are separated and are also labeled "heavy emotional work" here. In this case, i'm talking about the heavy physical. Also, the examples you mentioned: Correcting homework is to be done during a normal workweek. Since no teacher here stands in class full-time ( ~ 26 hours in general). Contact with parents is 2 days per year during normal days ( mo-fr) Administrative paper work is done during class, at the start.