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Learning to read english is not simple. I've been learning dutch, and teaching my children to read (english, native language) The one thing that struck me is

Learning to read english is not simple. I've been learning dutch, and teaching my children to read (english, native language) The one thing that struck me is how impossible it is to "sound out" english. That is use the letters to make a stab at what the word will sound like. Unlike dutch, the written word is only a slight guide as to how its supposed to sound. I can't spell for shit in english, but I can spell quite well in dutch.

jeroenhd 6y ago
As a native Dutchman, I won't pretend that our language doesn't have some of these problems as well (good luck pronouncing things like "glooiing" or "apostelen" right the first time), but English is just special. One of the simplest words, "read", has two correct interpretations that can sometimes even exist in the same sentence, with its pronunciation purely being based on context. There's an entire poem[1] about pronunciation in English that's near impossible to read for anyone but native speakers. In my experience, speaking English is something you can learn about as quickly as you can learn any language, depending on how close your native tongue is to its language family. There's a few rules about how to structure a sentence, but overal, it's not a language that's particularly difficult to learn. Reading becomes a challenge. If you don't know how a word is pronounced, you'll often mispronounced it the first time you read it. When it comes to writing, you may as well be learning Chinese or Japanese; nobody in their right mind would write "thorough" and "tough" like they are written if they would come up with a writing system today. I think the problem with English is that it's been written down without a proper reform for so long. Pronunciation changes over time, but if the written word doesn't change with it, you end up with a mess that's only making things difficult for kids and foreigners. I'm not saying English is the only language with problems, though. If you're learning Dutch, you've probably run into the impossible "de" vs "het" problem, a remnant of when the language still had masculine, feminine and neuter. I've argued with other native speakers which articles feel more natural compared to which noun, only to find out the dictionary says both are allowed. Luckily, there are some rules (many of which are vague and full of exceptions), but most native speakers won't be able to tell them to you. Every language has its challenges. [1]: http://ncf.idallen.com/english.html http://ncf.idallen.com/english.html
- wenc 6y ago
  That poem is amazing. It really brings to light how inconsistent English pronunciation truly is. Also I bet most native English speakers wouldn't be able to pronounce most of those words correctly. Many are obscure words that rarely come up in conversation (I only know them because I watched a lot of British TV as a kid). And for the longest time I thought awry was pronounced “Aw ry” until I heard someone say it as “a wry”. The word “hagiography” has two hard g’s instead of just one. And recently I learned that the word “mercantile” in Chicago Mercantile Exchange is pronounced mercanteel rather than mercan-tile (like floor tile). English is full of shibboleths.
  - pja 6y ago
    I’ve always pronounced it "-tile", not "-teel" & both Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mercantile https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mercantile ) & the OED ( https://www.lexico.com/definition/mercantile https://www.lexico.com/definition/mercantile ) agree that it’s pronounced "-tile" rather than "-teel", so I think your initial belief was the correct one! Wiktionary suggests that -teel is an alternate pronunciation in the US, but that -tile is the preferred one even there.

jeroenhd 6y ago

As a native Dutchman, I won't pretend that our language doesn't have some of these problems as well (good luck pronouncing things like "glooiing" or "apostelen" right the first time), but English is just special. One of the simplest words, "read", has two correct interpretations that can sometimes even exist in the same sentence, with its pronunciation purely being based on context. There's an entire poem[1] about pronunciation in English that's near impossible to read for anyone but native speakers. In my experience, speaking English is something you can learn about as quickly as you can learn any language, depending on how close your native tongue is to its language family. There's a few rules about how to structure a sentence, but overal, it's not a language that's particularly difficult to learn. Reading becomes a challenge. If you don't know how a word is pronounced, you'll often mispronounced it the first time you read it. When it comes to writing, you may as well be learning Chinese or Japanese; nobody in their right mind would write "thorough" and "tough" like they are written if they would come up with a writing system today. I think the problem with English is that it's been written down without a proper reform for so long. Pronunciation changes over time, but if the written word doesn't change with it, you end up with a mess that's only making things difficult for kids and foreigners. I'm not saying English is the only language with problems, though. If you're learning Dutch, you've probably run into the impossible "de" vs "het" problem, a remnant of when the language still had masculine, feminine and neuter. I've argued with other native speakers which articles feel more natural compared to which noun, only to find out the dictionary says both are allowed. Luckily, there are some rules (many of which are vague and full of exceptions), but most native speakers won't be able to tell them to you. Every language has its challenges. [1]: http://ncf.idallen.com/english.html http://ncf.idallen.com/english.html

wenc 6y ago
That poem is amazing. It really brings to light how inconsistent English pronunciation truly is. Also I bet most native English speakers wouldn't be able to pronounce most of those words correctly. Many are obscure words that rarely come up in conversation (I only know them because I watched a lot of British TV as a kid). And for the longest time I thought awry was pronounced “Aw ry” until I heard someone say it as “a wry”. The word “hagiography” has two hard g’s instead of just one. And recently I learned that the word “mercantile” in Chicago Mercantile Exchange is pronounced mercanteel rather than mercan-tile (like floor tile). English is full of shibboleths.
- pja 6y ago
  I’ve always pronounced it "-tile", not "-teel" & both Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mercantile https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mercantile ) & the OED ( https://www.lexico.com/definition/mercantile https://www.lexico.com/definition/mercantile ) agree that it’s pronounced "-tile" rather than "-teel", so I think your initial belief was the correct one! Wiktionary suggests that -teel is an alternate pronunciation in the US, but that -tile is the preferred one even there.