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Recently is found out about how sophisticated the bronze age was and most interesting how is how the collapse was so rapid and not accurately explainable. http

by Guthur 6y ago

Recently is found out about how sophisticated the bronze age was and most interesting how is how the collapse was so rapid and not accurately explainable. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_collapse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_collapse Makes you wonder how fragile advanced civilisation might be.

fogihujy 6y ago
"1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed" is an excellent book on the subject, and yes - there are definitely uncanny similarities between the Bronze Age world and the one we live in.
- paulintrognon 6y ago
  The Fall Of Civilization's Podcast on this subject is also a great introduction https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B965f8AcNbw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B965f8AcNbw (Generally speaking I really recommand this podcast, it has been recommanded on HN before, which is how I first heard of it)
  - jeppesen-io 6y ago
    Thank you, I'll give a watch/listen now EDIT: 33min in first episode, I can attest its quite good
  - mattrad 6y ago
    There is also an excellent NPR Throughline episode on this: https://www.npr.org/2021/01/11/955735429/what-happened-after-civilization-collapsed?t=1616927375944 https://www.npr.org/2021/01/11/955735429/what-happened-after...
  - kummappp 6y ago
    That is a great youtube channel there. The fall of the city of Ur was also a good one
  - zeristor 6y ago
    Thanks, I’ve already listened to two episodes since I’ve read your comment; it is indeed very good.
CaptainJustin 6y ago
This topic has occupied me for the last couple years. It started with "1177, The Year Civilization Collapsed". I went on to read material from archaeologists reporting in a rather dry way on their findings from the time / region. Some of the things that blow me away is the sheer scale of the late bronze age: The massive cities, the trade fleets, leaders sending each other gifts, the exchange of skills between regions and the massive trade routes for tin, copper and bronze. It completely destroyed the anglo-centric epochism I was taught in school. And in a short time it all collapsed. We don't see that level of trade, size of ships, cities of that size, level of diplomacy etc etc for well over 1000 years.
- lazyninja987 6y ago
  You are so true about anglo-centricism. I dont recall the name, but one indian mathematician travelleled to iraq (during its golden age) where he discussed mathematics with then iraqi scholars and his works are further translated which than reached europeans as arabic numerals.
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    Arabic numerals spread around 1000 AD, the collapse was 1100 BC. That said, Mesopotamia actually did survive the Bronze Age collapse.
  - usrusr 6y ago
    And to this day the English language calls those numerals the Arabic numerals. How much more acknowledgment could you expect? There's a lot to say about anglo-centrism, this is not part of it.
    - boomboomsubban 6y ago
      Though the (misguided)point is that during the "dark ages" things were great elsewhere, calling an Indian invention "Arabic numerals" because that's how they got introduced to Europe is rather Anglo-centric.
ironSkillet 6y ago
Interesting. I'm worried that civilization today is one unlucky solar storm away from major disruption and anarchy. Without electricity for an extended period of time, life as we know it would collapse.
- tenpies 6y ago
  I think we get to see a much slower one. With each protest, each natural disaster, each fabricated media outrage, each shift from pragmatism to luxury beliefs, each openly corrupt politician getting away with a slap in the wrist, each case of the justice system working to protect criminals at the expensive of victims, each case of institutions practicing racism under the guise of anti-racism, each open manipulation of fiat currency for the purposes of enriching politicians and government, each bill where only 20% of the money goes to the people and the other 80% is pork, each virtue signal at the cost of reality - every one slowly erodes our organizational capacity as a society to react and meet the contractual obligations of governance. Our unconscious notices, even if our conscious choses to rationalize or woke it away. The fuse is lit.
- tasogare 6y ago
  Yes, and the scary thing (as the covid handling in a lot of countries proved) most governments are incompetent to deal with such a disaster. The collapse of civilization, especially in the very integrated and inter-dependent world of today is way closer than most people think, and most government prepared. Ironically it’s countries which doesn’t do too well now but are too dependent one other that might survive better to such even. Also it’s not a if but a when.
- alpaca128 6y ago
  One of the important realisations about this topic for me was that humans didn't really evolve a lot during recorded history and a lot of our progress that actually made a difference is based on knowledge and hands-on experience that doesn't get recorded in written form. Ancient philosophers already had many profound ideas about the world, experts in ancient egypt fixed teeth with tools comparable to those of a today's dentist, engineers had enough experience and insight to build bridges that endured longer than many nations. It took one ship to block an important canal, one power outage in Texas to take out multiple factories for months, one pandemic(which was not unforeseeable) to completely shift the rules on how many things are done. I don't think it would even take a loss of electricity to see a lot of systems implode. We joked about the toilet paper shortage last year, but it was only funny because it was a relatively unimportant, long-lasting and easy to produce product. It could have been a lot worse.
jfengel 6y ago
I got a fascinating perspective on this from the archeological museum in Crete. It proceeded in chronological order, so I was very confused to get to a room of clearly more primitive geometric designs. It wasn't out of order. Everything clearly collapsed, and their art suddenly got a lot simpler and cruder. I learned a lot from that museum.

by Guthur 6y ago

fogihujy 6y ago

"1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed" is an excellent book on the subject, and yes - there are definitely uncanny similarities between the Bronze Age world and the one we live in.

paulintrognon 6y ago
The Fall Of Civilization's Podcast on this subject is also a great introduction https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B965f8AcNbw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B965f8AcNbw (Generally speaking I really recommand this podcast, it has been recommanded on HN before, which is how I first heard of it)
- jeppesen-io 6y ago
  Thank you, I'll give a watch/listen now EDIT: 33min in first episode, I can attest its quite good
- mattrad 6y ago
  There is also an excellent NPR Throughline episode on this: https://www.npr.org/2021/01/11/955735429/what-happened-after-civilization-collapsed?t=1616927375944 https://www.npr.org/2021/01/11/955735429/what-happened-after...
- kummappp 6y ago
  That is a great youtube channel there. The fall of the city of Ur was also a good one
- zeristor 6y ago
  Thanks, I’ve already listened to two episodes since I’ve read your comment; it is indeed very good.

CaptainJustin 6y ago

This topic has occupied me for the last couple years. It started with "1177, The Year Civilization Collapsed". I went on to read material from archaeologists reporting in a rather dry way on their findings from the time / region. Some of the things that blow me away is the sheer scale of the late bronze age: The massive cities, the trade fleets, leaders sending each other gifts, the exchange of skills between regions and the massive trade routes for tin, copper and bronze. It completely destroyed the anglo-centric epochism I was taught in school. And in a short time it all collapsed. We don't see that level of trade, size of ships, cities of that size, level of diplomacy etc etc for well over 1000 years.

lazyninja987 6y ago
You are so true about anglo-centricism. I dont recall the name, but one indian mathematician travelleled to iraq (during its golden age) where he discussed mathematics with then iraqi scholars and his works are further translated which than reached europeans as arabic numerals.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  Arabic numerals spread around 1000 AD, the collapse was 1100 BC. That said, Mesopotamia actually did survive the Bronze Age collapse.
- usrusr 6y ago
  And to this day the English language calls those numerals the Arabic numerals. How much more acknowledgment could you expect? There's a lot to say about anglo-centrism, this is not part of it.
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    Though the (misguided)point is that during the "dark ages" things were great elsewhere, calling an Indian invention "Arabic numerals" because that's how they got introduced to Europe is rather Anglo-centric.

ironSkillet 6y ago

Interesting. I'm worried that civilization today is one unlucky solar storm away from major disruption and anarchy. Without electricity for an extended period of time, life as we know it would collapse.

tenpies 6y ago
I think we get to see a much slower one. With each protest, each natural disaster, each fabricated media outrage, each shift from pragmatism to luxury beliefs, each openly corrupt politician getting away with a slap in the wrist, each case of the justice system working to protect criminals at the expensive of victims, each case of institutions practicing racism under the guise of anti-racism, each open manipulation of fiat currency for the purposes of enriching politicians and government, each bill where only 20% of the money goes to the people and the other 80% is pork, each virtue signal at the cost of reality - every one slowly erodes our organizational capacity as a society to react and meet the contractual obligations of governance. Our unconscious notices, even if our conscious choses to rationalize or woke it away. The fuse is lit.
tasogare 6y ago
Yes, and the scary thing (as the covid handling in a lot of countries proved) most governments are incompetent to deal with such a disaster. The collapse of civilization, especially in the very integrated and inter-dependent world of today is way closer than most people think, and most government prepared. Ironically it’s countries which doesn’t do too well now but are too dependent one other that might survive better to such even. Also it’s not a if but a when.
alpaca128 6y ago
One of the important realisations about this topic for me was that humans didn't really evolve a lot during recorded history and a lot of our progress that actually made a difference is based on knowledge and hands-on experience that doesn't get recorded in written form. Ancient philosophers already had many profound ideas about the world, experts in ancient egypt fixed teeth with tools comparable to those of a today's dentist, engineers had enough experience and insight to build bridges that endured longer than many nations. It took one ship to block an important canal, one power outage in Texas to take out multiple factories for months, one pandemic(which was not unforeseeable) to completely shift the rules on how many things are done. I don't think it would even take a loss of electricity to see a lot of systems implode. We joked about the toilet paper shortage last year, but it was only funny because it was a relatively unimportant, long-lasting and easy to produce product. It could have been a lot worse.

jfengel 6y ago

I got a fascinating perspective on this from the archeological museum in Crete. It proceeded in chronological order, so I was very confused to get to a room of clearly more primitive geometric designs. It wasn't out of order. Everything clearly collapsed, and their art suddenly got a lot simpler and cruder. I learned a lot from that museum.