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The United States is sailing the 7th fleet off of the Chinese coast and has China surrounded by military bases, some very close to the Chinese mainland. The Sh

The United States is sailing the 7th fleet off of the Chinese coast and has China surrounded by military bases, some very close to the Chinese mainland. The Shanghai Communiqué - Joint Communique of the United States of America and the People's Republic of China, settled the Taiwan question in the 1970's: http://www.taiwandocuments.org/communique01.htm http://www.taiwandocuments.org/communique01.htm > The U.S. side declared: The United States acknowledges that all Chinese on either side of the Taiwan Strait maintain there is but one China and that Taiwan is a part of China. It reaffirms its interest in a peaceful settlement of the Taiwan question by the Chinese themselves If you put yourself in China's shoes, and consider China's history. How would you feel if a Chinese fleet was sailing off of the coast of California and stoking internal tensions?

hayst4ck 6y ago
> If you put yourself in China's shoes, and consider China's history. How would you feel if a Chinese fleet was sailing off of the coast of California and stoking internal tensions? The question is phrased awkwardly and with a forgone conclusion. The world "internal" is key. Does a Taiwanese see that as an internal issue? Did a Hong Kong person see that as an internal issue? In an oppressor/opressee relationship I would probably feel much closer to the party being oppressed, and I would respect the "policing force" for protecting the more vulnerable party. So in your own scenario, say Trump won through an obviously fraudulent election, and Hawaii no longer wanted to be a part of America (rightfully so!), and the Chinese military was protecting Hawaii from being ruled without public consent, I would very much be happy about this Chinese fleet. If America was actively trying to extinguish a "pacific islander cancer" or a "native american cancer" via slow genocide and culturally destructive tacitcs, I would say that is an incredibly morally just cause for this theoretical Chinese fleet. How would you feel about the theoretical chinese fleet if you were hawaiian? Is America perfect (mexican border situation), no. But at least we can talk about our imperfections openly. We can have a discussion about this "evil" of "seperatism" if we wish. How would you feel if you were Taiwanese? How would you feel if you were a native Hong Konger? How would you feel if you were a Uigher? Do Chinese citizens not have any empathy? Have you ever been to Taiwan?
- bxbb 6y ago
  > Does a Taiwanese see that as an internal issue? Up until 2000 election, Kuomintang still hold majority power, with brief resurgence during 2008 election after DPP tried to separate Taiwan identity from China proper. The party position is generally unchanged: that they consider themselves the true government of China. DPP's position to ignore one-China conundrum historically met with skepticism from industrialist and labor population, since a clear separation between two entities would mean a substantial damage in economy. DPP only regained their votes in 2016 after softening their stance on independence. And they're [slowly losing trust](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Taiwanese_presidential_election#/media/File:ROC_2020_Presidential_Election_Township_level_swing.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Taiwanese_presidential_el...) from swing voters, again. So, yeah. Until Taiwan could make up its mind about their national identity and cross-strait relationship with Mainland China, it's still an internal issue. > say Trump won through an obviously fraudulent election, and Hawaii no longer wanted to be a part of America (rightfully so!), and the Chinese military was protecting Hawaii from being ruled without public consent, I would very much be happy about this Chinese fleet. That's a wildly different analogy. Imagine instead, that while the last election result is contested, a mob successfully storm the Capitol and reinstate Trump in his second term. Biden flee to Hawaii and declare the state as US government in exile. Fast forward 30 years and nothing really settled between Republican in US and Democrats in Hawaii because diplomacy is hard and both refused to negotiate (one had the power while the other had the legitimacy). And then China started to put their fleet because Blacks, Native American, and "Hawaiian" is oppressed. How would you think that would affect those people's future?
  - hayst4ck 6y ago
    Clearly if China was not being coercive/threatening they would declare themselves as an independent country. They operate as an independent country. They have their own military. The leader does not answer to China. They make effort away from china rather than closer. They are de facto independent. Do you think that position is held because of the consequences of messing with the status quo, or do you think it's there because it's truly believed? Do you think any Taiwanese citizens are sitting there plotting the running of Continental Taiwan? >So, yeah. Until Taiwan could make up its mind about their national identity and cross-strait relationship with Mainland China, it's still an internal issue. This statement isn't at all good faith. Clearly it's much more complex than that. You are saying the party line while ignoring any possibility of good faith argument otherwise. There is no invocation of the idea of what is morally right. There is no contemplation of what the Taiwanese people see as best for themselves. What do you think would happen in Taiwan today if they rescinded their "right" to rule China? If you were Taiwanese, what would you want to happen? If you were Non Han Taiwanese, what would you want to happen? How do you think Taiwanese children grow up learning about the China Taiwan situation? What kind of culture do you think young Taiwanese are indoctrinated with? How do you think a society that has freedom of speech considers its loss? How do you think a society that has rule of law considers its loss? What was the Taiwanese reaction to Hong Kong? Why do Taiwanese keep buying weapons? Is all Chinese trade to Taiwan a "gift"? What types of punitive things would China do for being embarrassed by Taiwan's rejection? Is the KMT/DPP of today, the same ruling "party" with the same "mindset" of yesteryear? Did the KMT have to step back on their pro China stance to become viable? Are the children of these "rebels" supposed to pay for the crimes of their parents? Do you not see the slightest problem with the situation of holding a gun to someones head and then shouting "ARE YOU INDEPENDENT?!" "Look, they said they're not independent, this is obviously an internal issue." > How would you think that would affect those people's future? That scenario makes no sense and there is insufficient information to judge it. It doesn't resonate with me. I wold probably be on one of the Islands.

hayst4ck 6y ago

> If you put yourself in China's shoes, and consider China's history. How would you feel if a Chinese fleet was sailing off of the coast of California and stoking internal tensions? The question is phrased awkwardly and with a forgone conclusion. The world "internal" is key. Does a Taiwanese see that as an internal issue? Did a Hong Kong person see that as an internal issue? In an oppressor/opressee relationship I would probably feel much closer to the party being oppressed, and I would respect the "policing force" for protecting the more vulnerable party. So in your own scenario, say Trump won through an obviously fraudulent election, and Hawaii no longer wanted to be a part of America (rightfully so!), and the Chinese military was protecting Hawaii from being ruled without public consent, I would very much be happy about this Chinese fleet. If America was actively trying to extinguish a "pacific islander cancer" or a "native american cancer" via slow genocide and culturally destructive tacitcs, I would say that is an incredibly morally just cause for this theoretical Chinese fleet. How would you feel about the theoretical chinese fleet if you were hawaiian? Is America perfect (mexican border situation), no. But at least we can talk about our imperfections openly. We can have a discussion about this "evil" of "seperatism" if we wish. How would you feel if you were Taiwanese? How would you feel if you were a native Hong Konger? How would you feel if you were a Uigher? Do Chinese citizens not have any empathy? Have you ever been to Taiwan?

bxbb 6y ago
> Does a Taiwanese see that as an internal issue? Up until 2000 election, Kuomintang still hold majority power, with brief resurgence during 2008 election after DPP tried to separate Taiwan identity from China proper. The party position is generally unchanged: that they consider themselves the true government of China. DPP's position to ignore one-China conundrum historically met with skepticism from industrialist and labor population, since a clear separation between two entities would mean a substantial damage in economy. DPP only regained their votes in 2016 after softening their stance on independence. And they're [slowly losing trust](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Taiwanese_presidential_election#/media/File:ROC_2020_Presidential_Election_Township_level_swing.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Taiwanese_presidential_el...) from swing voters, again. So, yeah. Until Taiwan could make up its mind about their national identity and cross-strait relationship with Mainland China, it's still an internal issue. > say Trump won through an obviously fraudulent election, and Hawaii no longer wanted to be a part of America (rightfully so!), and the Chinese military was protecting Hawaii from being ruled without public consent, I would very much be happy about this Chinese fleet. That's a wildly different analogy. Imagine instead, that while the last election result is contested, a mob successfully storm the Capitol and reinstate Trump in his second term. Biden flee to Hawaii and declare the state as US government in exile. Fast forward 30 years and nothing really settled between Republican in US and Democrats in Hawaii because diplomacy is hard and both refused to negotiate (one had the power while the other had the legitimacy). And then China started to put their fleet because Blacks, Native American, and "Hawaiian" is oppressed. How would you think that would affect those people's future?
- hayst4ck 6y ago
  Clearly if China was not being coercive/threatening they would declare themselves as an independent country. They operate as an independent country. They have their own military. The leader does not answer to China. They make effort away from china rather than closer. They are de facto independent. Do you think that position is held because of the consequences of messing with the status quo, or do you think it's there because it's truly believed? Do you think any Taiwanese citizens are sitting there plotting the running of Continental Taiwan? >So, yeah. Until Taiwan could make up its mind about their national identity and cross-strait relationship with Mainland China, it's still an internal issue. This statement isn't at all good faith. Clearly it's much more complex than that. You are saying the party line while ignoring any possibility of good faith argument otherwise. There is no invocation of the idea of what is morally right. There is no contemplation of what the Taiwanese people see as best for themselves. What do you think would happen in Taiwan today if they rescinded their "right" to rule China? If you were Taiwanese, what would you want to happen? If you were Non Han Taiwanese, what would you want to happen? How do you think Taiwanese children grow up learning about the China Taiwan situation? What kind of culture do you think young Taiwanese are indoctrinated with? How do you think a society that has freedom of speech considers its loss? How do you think a society that has rule of law considers its loss? What was the Taiwanese reaction to Hong Kong? Why do Taiwanese keep buying weapons? Is all Chinese trade to Taiwan a "gift"? What types of punitive things would China do for being embarrassed by Taiwan's rejection? Is the KMT/DPP of today, the same ruling "party" with the same "mindset" of yesteryear? Did the KMT have to step back on their pro China stance to become viable? Are the children of these "rebels" supposed to pay for the crimes of their parents? Do you not see the slightest problem with the situation of holding a gun to someones head and then shouting "ARE YOU INDEPENDENT?!" "Look, they said they're not independent, this is obviously an internal issue." > How would you think that would affect those people's future? That scenario makes no sense and there is insufficient information to judge it. It doesn't resonate with me. I wold probably be on one of the Islands.