6 ms·

Even if all of these were true (I would describe most of them as a mischaracterization at best), do you honestly think that outweighs everything that I describe

Even if all of these were true (I would describe most of them as a mischaracterization at best), do you honestly think that outweighs everything that I described? The worst thing that people can say about unions is they are bureaucratic and inconvenient. The worst things people can say about, say, working conditions in many non-unionized American workplaces are far, far worse. People dying, unfairly losing their job (and healthcare, and home), working incredibly long hours, unable to see their kid, unable to get adequate sleep, etc etc etc. I happen to think there are values other than "workers producing profit for their employers as efficiently as possible at the expense of anything else"

iliketosleep 6y ago
> The worst thing that people can say about unions is they are bureaucratic and inconvenient. I disagree. Unions can lead to the death of entire industries - I have seen it with my own eyes. Inefficiencies created by unions lead to jobs going to places where such unions do not exist. Personally, I do believe the workers need to be protected, but if you protect workers then you also need to protect industries, and this opens a gigantic can of worms as it runs counter to globalization and free trade.
- postpawl 6y ago
  “death of entire industries” What industry? Maybe we need to open a gigantic can of worms that “runs counter to globalization” if we’re talking about sending those jobs to countries with unethical working conditions.
  - iliketosleep 6y ago
    > What industry? There are many examples in the manufacturing industry, though unions aren't the only factor. > Maybe we need to open a gigantic can of worms that “runs counter to globalization” if we’re talking about sending those jobs to countries with unethical working conditions. I couldn't agree more, the problem is there are powerful interests that will keep trying to sweep this issue under the rug.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - hemogloben 6y ago
      > There are many examples in the manufacturing industry, though unions aren't the only factor. Ok. So what industry / example specifically?
  - totony 6y ago
    Taxis in a lot of places are akin to a union and are slowly dying with semi-legal alternatives like uber
- ipaddr 6y ago
  Unions don't kill industries because in many cases union and non-union companies serve an industry at the same time. Free trade moves industries elsewhere. But actually killing an industry: technology, war, social changes, demand and laws that outlaw things.
  - nailer 6y ago
    Free trade is often used to move work to countries without unions. Not advocating either position here, just pointing this out.
    - rlonn 6y ago
      Yes, so unions tend to kill countries where they're too strong. They tend to promote short-sighted action that save/retain existing jobs. This makes it harder for the economy to change when it is needed which in the long run leads to failed businesses, an uncompetitive work force and unemployment. Maybe unions is like democracy in that they totally suck, but the alternatives are worse. However, unions should definitely have their power checked.
Aerroon 6y ago
There's also 'bossnapping': https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-bossnapping-idUSBREA060GG20140107 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-bossnapping-idUSBR... I'm not sure I'd characterize this as anything reasonable. At what point does this warrant self defense by the people stuck?
baud147258 6y ago
I'd say that, yes, work laws are better in France than in the US, it's rather obvious, but I can't say that the unions in France are a net good. Also something I forgot to yesterday: unions that prevents downsizing or restructuring efforts to tackle industry changes, ending by killing the companies in question. Or, when a falling factory is about to be bought, imposing such constraints that all deal fall trough.

iliketosleep 6y ago

> The worst thing that people can say about unions is they are bureaucratic and inconvenient. I disagree. Unions can lead to the death of entire industries - I have seen it with my own eyes. Inefficiencies created by unions lead to jobs going to places where such unions do not exist. Personally, I do believe the workers need to be protected, but if you protect workers then you also need to protect industries, and this opens a gigantic can of worms as it runs counter to globalization and free trade.

postpawl 6y ago
“death of entire industries” What industry? Maybe we need to open a gigantic can of worms that “runs counter to globalization” if we’re talking about sending those jobs to countries with unethical working conditions.
- iliketosleep 6y ago
  > What industry? There are many examples in the manufacturing industry, though unions aren't the only factor. > Maybe we need to open a gigantic can of worms that “runs counter to globalization” if we’re talking about sending those jobs to countries with unethical working conditions. I couldn't agree more, the problem is there are powerful interests that will keep trying to sweep this issue under the rug.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - hemogloben 6y ago
    > There are many examples in the manufacturing industry, though unions aren't the only factor. Ok. So what industry / example specifically?
- totony 6y ago
  Taxis in a lot of places are akin to a union and are slowly dying with semi-legal alternatives like uber
ipaddr 6y ago
Unions don't kill industries because in many cases union and non-union companies serve an industry at the same time. Free trade moves industries elsewhere. But actually killing an industry: technology, war, social changes, demand and laws that outlaw things.
- nailer 6y ago
  Free trade is often used to move work to countries without unions. Not advocating either position here, just pointing this out.
  - rlonn 6y ago
    Yes, so unions tend to kill countries where they're too strong. They tend to promote short-sighted action that save/retain existing jobs. This makes it harder for the economy to change when it is needed which in the long run leads to failed businesses, an uncompetitive work force and unemployment. Maybe unions is like democracy in that they totally suck, but the alternatives are worse. However, unions should definitely have their power checked.

Aerroon 6y ago

There's also 'bossnapping': https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-bossnapping-idUSBREA060GG20140107 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-bossnapping-idUSBR... I'm not sure I'd characterize this as anything reasonable. At what point does this warrant self defense by the people stuck?

baud147258 6y ago

I'd say that, yes, work laws are better in France than in the US, it's rather obvious, but I can't say that the unions in France are a net good. Also something I forgot to yesterday: unions that prevents downsizing or restructuring efforts to tackle industry changes, ending by killing the companies in question. Or, when a falling factory is about to be bought, imposing such constraints that all deal fall trough.