7 ms·

Foxconn hits the gas on vision for 'fabless' EV future

44 points by baybal2 6y ago

Shivetya 6y ago
Now I am not clear on part of their plan, contracting out all production to Foxconn, does that include the 20% that is not part of the platform? If not it could herald in the days of custom coach builders that were prevalent nearly a hundred years ago which resulted in some amazing cars sharing a similar chassis, motor, and more. The more the merrier in this space. Frankly I think most brands have been downright boring in their EVs and especially VW which has a dedicated platform that packages more like a traditional one; no frunk and such.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  Actually I think VW is one of the few companies taking EV's seriously. Most of the other cars on the market are available as ICE cars as well as electric, that inevitably leads to compromise.
blue_box 6y ago
Now, we know who is going to manufacture Apple Car.
- dzhiurgis 6y ago
  Question is who is going to sell it. It might be Apple's tech, but no way they gonna support your seats and other shit like that.
sandworm101 6y ago
One company making the driveteain, another the body and passenger area. We are returning to the age of coach construction a la the 1920s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coachbuilder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coachbuilder Lots of companies have tried this. The concept even has a knickname: the EV skateboard. None have really taken off. https://www.autoweek.com/news/trucks/a31707688/you-could-build-almost-anything-on-bollingers-ev-platform/ https://www.autoweek.com/news/trucks/a31707688/you-could-bui...
- rasz 6y ago
  Returning? You can buy brand new Vintage Bentleys today. Made in Poland, authorized by Bentley. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-h6p73i6_g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-h6p73i6_g
- SigmundA 6y ago
  This is how motorhomes are made to this day. If you buy a gas Class A coach new it is made on a Ford F53 chassis while the body is made by any number companies completely different. If it’s a diesel it going to most likely be a Frieghtliner, but might be a Spartan chassis. The engine will be Cummins and the transmission Allison.
- nick_kline 6y ago
  The skateboard was actually a very successful concept. The most important ev to date has been the tesla model s, started shipping in 2012 - https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/12/the-tesla-model-s-skateboard-rolling-chassis-is-a-thing-of-beauty/ https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/12/the-tesla-model-s-skatebo.... Multiple other ev companies used the skateboard. After 9 years, tesla is probably moving to a related system, where the batteries are structural components. But it's been a major success, including for the S, 3, Y. There are more tesla skateboard evs than all other evs combined.
wrnr 6y ago
Makes total sense to have a white label car platform, especially in a post level 5 self-driving future when automobiles become automaton providing a range of services going from taxying people to delivering groceries and even joy riding experience with vehicles that accelerate halfway through a corner for extra G. The fleet managers will want to customise everything ranging from designing the cargo area to branding the exterior.
- baybal2 6y ago
  Most sedans, and hatchbacks are already made using "car platforms" by major manufacturers, which are manufactured in ennormous quantities for maximum economies of scale, and are shared by a dozen or so car models per platform. Platform kits are then only customized with body panells, interior, and a badge by the car brand.
  - fma 6y ago
    Just to provide examples: General Motors EV: https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/16/21439374/gm-unveils-ultium-drive-family-of-electric-motors https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/16/21439374/gm-unveils-ultiu... For example, Ultium is expected to provide the foundation for GM’s upcoming Hummer pickup truck and SUV; the luxury Cadillac Lyriq SUV; an electric delivery van; and two electric vehicles that the automaker is making in partnership with Honda. Volkswagon: https://jalopnik.com/the-fascinating-engineering-behind-vws-electric-car-pla-1829257860 https://jalopnik.com/the-fascinating-engineering-behind-vws-... It is supposedly capable of underpinning everything from the aforementioned I.D. compact car (which VW also refers to as the “Neo”) and I.D. Crozz SUV, to a sedan based on the I.D. Vizzion concept, to a modern interpretation of the VW Microbus based on the I.D. Buzz concept.
    - dzhiurgis 6y ago
      Difference is that MEB or Ultium are developed internally in US or EU. They gonna engineer essentially identical part that most people not gonna care for. Differentiator is UX - this is where Tesla still winning and where Apple wants to step in. Plus manufacturing in Taiwan gets you near China costs + top notch engineers minus wariness of Chinese EVs (which most people scoff at yet they are inevitable winners). p.s. I don't think it makes sense for Apple to be selling cars themselves. Rather they can make new iteration of CarPlay and partner up with Foxconn to sell the package to traditional car companies or other third parties - who just select trim, tyres and cabin based on the local market demographics.
jonplackett 6y ago
Yet again this article mentions 5G being "a must for automated-driving technology" I don't see why this is necessary? A car is going to need to make decisions without a connection so why does everyone go on about this all the time? Genuine question.
- baybal2 6y ago
  > A car is going to need to make decisions without a connection so why does everyone go on about this all the time? Because they don't know it? I'd say even in such reputable establishment as Nikkei, airhead "tech journalists" are running the show. People are afraid to show their incompetence, and switch to technical gobbledygook.
  - jonplackett 6y ago
    It comes up in virtually every article about automated cars, with zero explanation. If it really is just that journalists are too afraid to ask / don't know better, that's pretty damning for the entire tech journalist industry!
    - adamcstephens 6y ago
      Sure, they can operate without 5G, but I can see strong benefits to having connectivity. Traffic, construction, road changes happen and fully automated needs to know where it’s going. It seems like a must to me, and definitely assumed for any future car platforms.
      - jonplackett 6y ago
        I'm not saying they don't need the internet, just that 5G is specifically for super high speed internet. Why can't 4G do all that? Or your home wifi connection at night?
      - gameswithgo 6y ago
        First, all of that can be done with 4g. Second, supposing you did need connectivity to have a self driving car, the challenge is having a good signal everywhere, not having 5g. You can't even get 4g everywhere. Third I would never purchase a self driving car that requires any connectivity in order to work well.
uxp100 6y ago
This mentions the Wisconsin 'factory," which is some sort of weird scam/distraction. So if they claim they will develop or build EV tech there then they aren't working on it. They do legitimate business elsewhere, maybe the Mexico facility will be real, maybe the platform is real, but if they are "working on" "developing" "EV tech" at their potemkin facility in Wisconsin you will know it is a lie.
- pilsetnieks 6y ago
  The (now fallen from grace) Reply All podcast did a pretty good episode on this: https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/wbhjwd https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/wbhjwd
  - Judgmentality 6y ago
    > The (now fallen from grace) Reply All podcast Wow, I did not hear about that and that was one of my favorite podcasts. Currently reading as I write this: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/25/business/media/reply-all-podcast-on-pause.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/25/business/media/reply-all-...
    - umvi 6y ago
      "after accusations that they worked against union efforts that many employees of color saw as necessary to increase diversity" So basically "fallen from grace" because the wokeness mobs have descended on it
      - lcpriest 6y ago
        Why have you conflated combating anti-unionism as wokeness? That's such a strawman
        umvi 6y ago
        Because apparently you aren't allowed to have an anti-union opinion because that somehow means you are racist and anti-diversity which goes against the wokeness mobs
mensetmanusman 6y ago
Bad idea, Tesla proved that vertical integration results in excellent E-vehicles. For example, the seats on Tesla’s are amazing compared to OEMs that all outsourced something so fundamental to the driver experience. If every OEM outsourced to Foxconn, that sounds like a race to the bottom. This worked for android because everyone in the world needs to own a phone, this isn’t true for vehicles.
- jfim 6y ago
  There's a lot of variance between seats, and luxury cars tend to have better seats than Tesla's. For example, the Lincoln seats have 30 settings to adjust, as well as a massage function. [0] [0] https://youtu.be/jbB40dpMTvU https://youtu.be/jbB40dpMTvU
  - t3rabytes 6y ago
    I’ve heard mixed reviews of the Lincoln seats because of the adjustments. There are just so many settings that getting them right is overwhelming and difficult.
    - timewarrior 6y ago
      I have had the same experience. I tried a BMW X7 and could never get a comfortable seat position. There were just too many controls. I only wish Tesla has thigh extension. Otherwise the seats are really comfortable.
  - tachyonbeam 6y ago
    Lincoln, that is such a cool brand that everybody raves about, everyone talks about Lincoln because of their seats that are so much better than Tesla's. This is why Ford has such a high valuation. They invest in the right kind of innovations, like seat massagers, I mean, if I had 80K to spend on a car, I would totally buy a Lincoln just because of that.
- tachyonbeam 6y ago
  And still, I own a Google phone, but I wouldn't buy some noname brand Android from China, because I have no idea what the quality is going to be like. What Foxconn wants to do is going to result in a flood of cheap Chinese noname electric cars. Think of the products you see on Amazon. Would you buy an ILove2Life EV200X? It claims to have better range than a Tesla Model 3 and it costs 25% less. It also has cool features like UltraBass speakers built into the headrests, whoa! When people buy a car, they usually expect it to last them at least 5 years, and they expect it to be in good working condition when they sell it (otherwise there would be no buyers). That's hard to do with zero brand trust.
PradeetPatel 6y ago
At this rate I have a strong suspicion that China's EV industry may overtake US. The sheer accerlation in technological innovation coming out of China has been staggering over the last few years.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  Isn't Foxconn Taiwanese rather than Chinese?

44 points by baybal2 6y ago

Now I am not clear on part of their plan, contracting out all production to Foxconn, does that include the 20% that is not part of the platform? If not it could herald in the days of custom coach builders that were prevalent nearly a hundred years ago which resulted in some amazing cars sharing a similar chassis, motor, and more. The more the merrier in this space. Frankly I think most brands have been downright boring in their EVs and especially VW which has a dedicated platform that packages more like a traditional one; no frunk and such.

tonyedgecombe 6y ago
Actually I think VW is one of the few companies taking EV's seriously. Most of the other cars on the market are available as ICE cars as well as electric, that inevitably leads to compromise.

blue_box 6y ago

Now, we know who is going to manufacture Apple Car.

dzhiurgis 6y ago
Question is who is going to sell it. It might be Apple's tech, but no way they gonna support your seats and other shit like that.

sandworm101 6y ago

One company making the driveteain, another the body and passenger area. We are returning to the age of coach construction a la the 1920s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coachbuilder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coachbuilder Lots of companies have tried this. The concept even has a knickname: the EV skateboard. None have really taken off. https://www.autoweek.com/news/trucks/a31707688/you-could-build-almost-anything-on-bollingers-ev-platform/ https://www.autoweek.com/news/trucks/a31707688/you-could-bui...

rasz 6y ago
Returning? You can buy brand new Vintage Bentleys today. Made in Poland, authorized by Bentley. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-h6p73i6_g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-h6p73i6_g
SigmundA 6y ago
This is how motorhomes are made to this day. If you buy a gas Class A coach new it is made on a Ford F53 chassis while the body is made by any number companies completely different. If it’s a diesel it going to most likely be a Frieghtliner, but might be a Spartan chassis. The engine will be Cummins and the transmission Allison.
nick_kline 6y ago
The skateboard was actually a very successful concept. The most important ev to date has been the tesla model s, started shipping in 2012 - https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/12/the-tesla-model-s-skateboard-rolling-chassis-is-a-thing-of-beauty/ https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/12/the-tesla-model-s-skatebo.... Multiple other ev companies used the skateboard. After 9 years, tesla is probably moving to a related system, where the batteries are structural components. But it's been a major success, including for the S, 3, Y. There are more tesla skateboard evs than all other evs combined.

wrnr 6y ago

Makes total sense to have a white label car platform, especially in a post level 5 self-driving future when automobiles become automaton providing a range of services going from taxying people to delivering groceries and even joy riding experience with vehicles that accelerate halfway through a corner for extra G. The fleet managers will want to customise everything ranging from designing the cargo area to branding the exterior.

baybal2 6y ago
Most sedans, and hatchbacks are already made using "car platforms" by major manufacturers, which are manufactured in ennormous quantities for maximum economies of scale, and are shared by a dozen or so car models per platform. Platform kits are then only customized with body panells, interior, and a badge by the car brand.
- fma 6y ago
  Just to provide examples: General Motors EV: https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/16/21439374/gm-unveils-ultium-drive-family-of-electric-motors https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/16/21439374/gm-unveils-ultiu... For example, Ultium is expected to provide the foundation for GM’s upcoming Hummer pickup truck and SUV; the luxury Cadillac Lyriq SUV; an electric delivery van; and two electric vehicles that the automaker is making in partnership with Honda. Volkswagon: https://jalopnik.com/the-fascinating-engineering-behind-vws-electric-car-pla-1829257860 https://jalopnik.com/the-fascinating-engineering-behind-vws-... It is supposedly capable of underpinning everything from the aforementioned I.D. compact car (which VW also refers to as the “Neo”) and I.D. Crozz SUV, to a sedan based on the I.D. Vizzion concept, to a modern interpretation of the VW Microbus based on the I.D. Buzz concept.
  - dzhiurgis 6y ago
    Difference is that MEB or Ultium are developed internally in US or EU. They gonna engineer essentially identical part that most people not gonna care for. Differentiator is UX - this is where Tesla still winning and where Apple wants to step in. Plus manufacturing in Taiwan gets you near China costs + top notch engineers minus wariness of Chinese EVs (which most people scoff at yet they are inevitable winners). p.s. I don't think it makes sense for Apple to be selling cars themselves. Rather they can make new iteration of CarPlay and partner up with Foxconn to sell the package to traditional car companies or other third parties - who just select trim, tyres and cabin based on the local market demographics.

jonplackett 6y ago

Yet again this article mentions 5G being "a must for automated-driving technology" I don't see why this is necessary? A car is going to need to make decisions without a connection so why does everyone go on about this all the time? Genuine question.

baybal2 6y ago
> A car is going to need to make decisions without a connection so why does everyone go on about this all the time? Because they don't know it? I'd say even in such reputable establishment as Nikkei, airhead "tech journalists" are running the show. People are afraid to show their incompetence, and switch to technical gobbledygook.
- jonplackett 6y ago
  It comes up in virtually every article about automated cars, with zero explanation. If it really is just that journalists are too afraid to ask / don't know better, that's pretty damning for the entire tech journalist industry!
  - adamcstephens 6y ago
    Sure, they can operate without 5G, but I can see strong benefits to having connectivity. Traffic, construction, road changes happen and fully automated needs to know where it’s going. It seems like a must to me, and definitely assumed for any future car platforms.
    - jonplackett 6y ago
      I'm not saying they don't need the internet, just that 5G is specifically for super high speed internet. Why can't 4G do all that? Or your home wifi connection at night?
    - gameswithgo 6y ago
      First, all of that can be done with 4g. Second, supposing you did need connectivity to have a self driving car, the challenge is having a good signal everywhere, not having 5g. You can't even get 4g everywhere. Third I would never purchase a self driving car that requires any connectivity in order to work well.

uxp100 6y ago

This mentions the Wisconsin 'factory," which is some sort of weird scam/distraction. So if they claim they will develop or build EV tech there then they aren't working on it. They do legitimate business elsewhere, maybe the Mexico facility will be real, maybe the platform is real, but if they are "working on" "developing" "EV tech" at their potemkin facility in Wisconsin you will know it is a lie.

pilsetnieks 6y ago
The (now fallen from grace) Reply All podcast did a pretty good episode on this: https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/wbhjwd https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/wbhjwd
- Judgmentality 6y ago
  > The (now fallen from grace) Reply All podcast Wow, I did not hear about that and that was one of my favorite podcasts. Currently reading as I write this: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/25/business/media/reply-all-podcast-on-pause.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/25/business/media/reply-all-...
  - umvi 6y ago
    "after accusations that they worked against union efforts that many employees of color saw as necessary to increase diversity" So basically "fallen from grace" because the wokeness mobs have descended on it
    - lcpriest 6y ago
      Why have you conflated combating anti-unionism as wokeness? That's such a strawman
      - umvi 6y ago
        Because apparently you aren't allowed to have an anti-union opinion because that somehow means you are racist and anti-diversity which goes against the wokeness mobs

mensetmanusman 6y ago

Bad idea, Tesla proved that vertical integration results in excellent E-vehicles. For example, the seats on Tesla’s are amazing compared to OEMs that all outsourced something so fundamental to the driver experience. If every OEM outsourced to Foxconn, that sounds like a race to the bottom. This worked for android because everyone in the world needs to own a phone, this isn’t true for vehicles.

jfim 6y ago
There's a lot of variance between seats, and luxury cars tend to have better seats than Tesla's. For example, the Lincoln seats have 30 settings to adjust, as well as a massage function. [0] [0] https://youtu.be/jbB40dpMTvU https://youtu.be/jbB40dpMTvU
- t3rabytes 6y ago
  I’ve heard mixed reviews of the Lincoln seats because of the adjustments. There are just so many settings that getting them right is overwhelming and difficult.
  - timewarrior 6y ago
    I have had the same experience. I tried a BMW X7 and could never get a comfortable seat position. There were just too many controls. I only wish Tesla has thigh extension. Otherwise the seats are really comfortable.
- tachyonbeam 6y ago
  Lincoln, that is such a cool brand that everybody raves about, everyone talks about Lincoln because of their seats that are so much better than Tesla's. This is why Ford has such a high valuation. They invest in the right kind of innovations, like seat massagers, I mean, if I had 80K to spend on a car, I would totally buy a Lincoln just because of that.
tachyonbeam 6y ago
And still, I own a Google phone, but I wouldn't buy some noname brand Android from China, because I have no idea what the quality is going to be like. What Foxconn wants to do is going to result in a flood of cheap Chinese noname electric cars. Think of the products you see on Amazon. Would you buy an ILove2Life EV200X? It claims to have better range than a Tesla Model 3 and it costs 25% less. It also has cool features like UltraBass speakers built into the headrests, whoa! When people buy a car, they usually expect it to last them at least 5 years, and they expect it to be in good working condition when they sell it (otherwise there would be no buyers). That's hard to do with zero brand trust.

PradeetPatel 6y ago

At this rate I have a strong suspicion that China's EV industry may overtake US. The sheer accerlation in technological innovation coming out of China has been staggering over the last few years.

tonyedgecombe 6y ago
Isn't Foxconn Taiwanese rather than Chinese?