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Ask HN: Downvoting

20 points by mrvc 15y ago

After having a previous account banned following a "bad" comment on a single thread that led to about 10 downvotes because it went against the grain, I'd like to see if there's any consideration of removing downvoting from HN in order to encourage debate while keeping upvoting and flagging intact. I ask because following that incident I will no longer be presenting dissenting views here, irrespective of perceived value. What does HN think about removing downvoting?

Animus7 15y ago
People don't downvote dissenting views. They downvote comments that lack value to the discussion.
- mrvc 15y ago
  That is the wish, I do believe the reality is quite different in my experience.
- ColinWright 15y ago
  That was once the case, but I think it's no longer true. Of late I've seen relevant and constructive comments down-voted, and I've been able to discern no reason other than the view expressed was an unpopular one. If there's a mechanism to indicate a comment is inappropriate, people will use it to indicate disapproval. If there's no mechanism to indicate a comment is inappropriate, inappropriate and off-topic will abound. Removing down-votes might help, but I doubt it.
  - mrvc 15y ago
    Isn't that what the flagging system is for? Removal of spam and inappropriate comments. With upvotes acting as a counter force to filter good content up...?
    - JoachimSchipper 15y ago
      There's a difference between "int i = INT_MAX + 1 is legal C" (appropriate but factually wrong) and "fsck off, you moron".
      - saurik 15y ago
        ...but then, what is the difference between an opinion you disagree with (a "dissenting view") and one that you believe to be factually incorrect? I feel like downvoting the former "factually wrong" comment leads to the behavior that ColinWright is describing: where people downvote anything they disagree with. (One might even argue that this is a fundamental bug in having downvoting as a mechanism.)
        ColinWright 15y ago
        People do down-vote anything they disagree with, and there's nothing that can stop that. You can't change people's behavior. However, removing the ability to down-vote won't really change anything in this regard, except that it will stop people from feeling attacked when they get a down-vote. What would change is that there would be no feedback about genuinely inappropriate comments, and I think that would be bad. The only thing I can think of is to separate "down-vote" (meaning "of little value") from "inappropriate", label them clearly as such, and have the consequences of a "down-vote" less apparent and less severe. Then you can only trust that the behavior will sort itself as the "community" decides on the meaning of "inappropriate" and "of little value."
        JoachimSchipper 15y ago
        I think the "canonical" solution is changing the audience by migrating to a new site...
        ColinWright 15y ago
        That may yet happen/be happening.
        JoachimSchipper 15y ago
        "Dissenting view" is "Ruby is badly-engineered", "the poor remain poor chiefly because of a lack of discipline" or "PHP is extremely useful": you may or may not agree, but there are serious arguments to be made for those positions (and there is some degree of truth to each of them), and reasonable people can and do disagree on these issues. On the other hand, "int i = INT_MAX + 1" is factually wrong, and you could link to the standard to prove it. Similarly, "the Sun orbits the earth" is factually wrong (to the extent that it's meaningful, at least). Yes, there are edge cases, and yes, people tend to think that what they believe in is "obviously" the only right thing to believe in; but that doesn't mean that there's no difference at all.
  - jinushaun 15y ago
    Time and time again, Slashdot's voting system shows that it's superior to these simple up/down voting systems. Not all up votes are equal, nor are all down votes simply because you disagree with the content.
    - ColinWright 15y ago
      I, and I'm sure many others here also, am unfamiliar with SlashDot's system. Could you point to a summary? Perhaps simply edit your comment to include one. Thanks.
      - thomasz 15y ago
        "Randomly selected moderators assign points of either −1 or +1 to each comment, based on whether the comment is perceived as either normal, offtopic, insightful, redundant, interesting, or troll (among others)."(Wikipedia) Interesting approach...
ColinWright 15y ago
I would be interested in knowing how much of your description is deduction on your part, and how much is received fact from definitive sources. I would be interested in knowing how and why your comment was deemed "bad." I don't know of any definitive cases where someone made a comment that was appropriate, got vast numbers of down-votes, and then got banned because of it. I know of many people who have complained about being banned, only to discover that it wasn't the case. I do know of many people who present dissenting views, but present them carefully and constructively, and who do not attract down-votes because of their comments. They work hard to get people to think first, and not to react with a jerk of the knee (so to speak). It is possible. I've seen it. It's not easy, and I suspect not everyone can do it. In short, it's unclear that your beliefs about the situation are accurate - there are many ways to get these things wrong. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying that your view about down-votes may not be accurate. And no, I don't think down-votes should be removed, although I frequently don't understand how they are being used.
- mrvc 15y ago
  Take as an example some comments I made prior to making this post in the climate change thread currently on the frontpage (ice age). Although I have now deleted these, I simply stated that climate change prediction was uncertain due to the number of factors involved. A simple 2 line or so comment in reply to a poster asking why conflicting views existed on the subject. I believe it was of value (it answered his/her question, yet was of course an unpopular opninion to hold. A few minutes later it hit -1. I won't be repeating the mistake of thinking I can discuss a matter openly here and believe downvoting adds nothing to a discussion (in contrast to upvoting which can be very useful for sorting comments).
  - JoachimSchipper 15y ago
    That is not a very valuable comment, though. You may have received a better score if you posted a not-so-valuable comment defending a popular position, but that doesn't mean that well-argued defences of unpopular positions receive the same treatment. Being downvoted has a much higher emotional impact than being upvoted, but it does help with sorting comments, obviously.
plasma 15y ago
How do you even downvote, do you need a certain level of karma?
- JoachimSchipper 15y ago
  Yes, you need some amount of karma. This was 200 at one point, but I seem to recall that it's ~500 now.
ryall 15y ago
How about a limited amount of down-votes allocated to each member to dish out? Possibly tiered based on karma level? Perhaps a member that down-votes a comment loses karma if the comment is then up-voted by other members (ie deemed an unfair down-vote by others)?
- peterhi 15y ago
  The only problem here is that you are assuming only one point of view is correct. So if I down vote you because I believe what you are saying is wrong but a lot of supporters of your view up vote then I will be punished for having a discenting (or at least less popular) view. Is this what you had in mind?
  - jonafato 15y ago
    Therein lies the the problem though. It seems to be the general consensus that people should down vote only for unhelpful / irrelevant / factually incorrect comments, however voting is used to show agreement / disagreement. Before voting, I usually ask myself why I'm doing this. If it's to promote an opinion, I leave it alone.
    - ryall 15y ago
      Exactly. Down-voting is not to show disagreement, it's to cull comments that don't contribute to the discussion. What I'm proposing would hopefully make people question their motives before down-voting.
cageface 15y ago
I'd like to see it disappear, personally. The really bad comments tend to sink to the bottom of the page anyway and increasingly downvoting is being used capriciously and vindictively to ding opinions people just don't happen to agree with.
- steventruong 15y ago
  I agree with this. It irks me a bit that people would downvote simply because they have a different view. Sometimes completely unwarranted when the view or opinion does not affect the outcome of the thread or conversation. I would rather have downvoting removed completely as well.
fogus 15y ago
Am I missing something? Isn't one way to fix downvoting to make them subtractive for both parties?
- ColinWright 15y ago
  Then if something is on-topic but content-free, why would I bother to flag it? How do I get rewarded for doing the right thing? Why should I not just leave it to someone else? The idea is to reward correct behavior, whereas your suggestion punishes it.
  - fogus 15y ago
    Yeah, you're probably right. I was hoping for the simple solution, but came up short. I can say that I personally wouldn't mind sacrificing my own karma to downvote someone who really deserves it.
- rcfox 15y ago
  I wonder if you're referring to the Stack Overflow decision to do this. They've made several strange modifications to their reputation system since the beginning, and I'm not sure any of them have really added value: paying for downvotes, daily reputation caps, etc. All of these tweaks to the reputation system are to encourage a certain kind of behaviour, but I'm not sure it's the right kind of behaviour. Does it make sense to stop someone from providing answers when they are clearly good at it? I find that, for myself, when I cast a downvote on Stack Overflow, I see an opportunity for 9 more free downvotes. (I'm a little OCD about having a score that's divisible by 10.)
codabrink 15y ago
People on HN are way too keen to downvoting. Down votes should be used to filter out bad/thoughtless comments, not viewpoints that don't necessarily agree with yours. I've seen a lot of valuable input grayed out on this site.
- steventruong 15y ago
  I agree except bad/thoughtless can be subjective.
  - mentat 15y ago
    What's wrong with people making subjective judgments about the work of others in a community they share? You have to have a certain level of karma to down vote, which means (theoretically) you have to have done things that created sufficient value for at least some people and hopefully learned about what the existing group values.
    - steventruong 15y ago
      Getting total karma count isn't difficult. People whose been around long enough will eventually accummulate the number needed if they interact in any way at all
maresca 15y ago
Downvoting is used often for dissenting views nowadays. Personally, I don't care that much if my comments are downvoted. This is just another forum on the internet. I'd rather voice my opinion and get downvoted than not voice my opinion at all. That being said, I'd like to see the downvoting be removed. Go ahead and downvote my comment.
- ColinWright 15y ago
  From http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html In Comments ... Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downmod you.
  - maresca 15y ago
    Irony is dead.
    - ColinWright 15y ago
      Did you not perceive the irony in my comment? I guess it was more post-ironic or meta-irony - bit tricky to detect.
NoItAll 15y ago
In the grand scheme of things, why on Earth do you care if an account was down-voted? Personally, I see this as a bad sign that people in general are very immature and do not have an adult grasp on reality. People who care about getting 'down-voted' frighten me. Comment trolled perhaps? It's hard to say. ColinWright: are you really this bored with life? I like to contribute, but really.. I don't care what people thing of my comments, they are just comments on a random website.
- rcfox 15y ago
  This comment would be more persuasive if it weren't coming from a newly-created account.
  - NoItAll 15y ago
    Why on Earth would you say that? Not sure which reality 'newly-created accounts' have any weight, but not among adults. Please get over yourselves. Such hubris!
hammock 15y ago
I ask because following that incident I will no longer be presenting dissenting views here, irrespective of perceived value. Having a positive points value is more important to you than interesting debate? Boy do you have your priorities backwards. Don't let a downvote stop you from posting your ideas, that's ridiculous.
Mz 15y ago
I ask because following that incident I will no longer be presenting dissenting views here, irrespective of perceived value. Presenting a dissenting opinion is an art form. It takes practice. I do a lot of it. I never really fit in anywhere I go. An awful lot of my views do not fit into whatever the 'typical' assumptions are on a topic and this means that no matter what I say, both sides often wind up kicking the crap out of me. Some tips, should you decide you would like to try again: Don't be argumentative about it. Present your views as a standing-on-your-own-two-feet position, not a shooting-down-the-opposition thing. Show some respect -- agree to disagree, make no attempt to "win people over", much less "win". Stick to the issues. When you dissent, inevitably there will be enormous social pressure swirling around your lack of going along to get along. Anyone who speaks to you will likely try to put all kinds of crap on you about what they think you are saying. Politely clarify, as many times as it takes. Judge the timing and context carefully. There is a time and place to offer an alternate point of view. There are other times and places where it's so not worth it. Word your dissent very carefully. If your goal is to get people to really think and not just punch buttons, like it or not, the burden is on the minority voice to make an effort to communicate effectively. If you are going along with the majority opinion, you can express yourself sloppily and people won't care. But when stating a minority opinion, you must be extra careful to work at communicating effectively and intentionally avoid punching people's buttons so as to have some hope of actually being heard.
nsomaru 15y ago
Perhaps it's also about _how_ you present a view. Using words such as "perhaps" and "consider" allow people to more easily receive the thought that you are attempting to convey.

Ask HN: Downvoting

20 points by mrvc 15y ago

Animus7 15y ago

People don't downvote dissenting views. They downvote comments that lack value to the discussion.

mrvc 15y ago
That is the wish, I do believe the reality is quite different in my experience.
ColinWright 15y ago
That was once the case, but I think it's no longer true. Of late I've seen relevant and constructive comments down-voted, and I've been able to discern no reason other than the view expressed was an unpopular one. If there's a mechanism to indicate a comment is inappropriate, people will use it to indicate disapproval. If there's no mechanism to indicate a comment is inappropriate, inappropriate and off-topic will abound. Removing down-votes might help, but I doubt it.
- mrvc 15y ago
  Isn't that what the flagging system is for? Removal of spam and inappropriate comments. With upvotes acting as a counter force to filter good content up...?
  - JoachimSchipper 15y ago
    There's a difference between "int i = INT_MAX + 1 is legal C" (appropriate but factually wrong) and "fsck off, you moron".
    - saurik 15y ago
      ...but then, what is the difference between an opinion you disagree with (a "dissenting view") and one that you believe to be factually incorrect? I feel like downvoting the former "factually wrong" comment leads to the behavior that ColinWright is describing: where people downvote anything they disagree with. (One might even argue that this is a fundamental bug in having downvoting as a mechanism.)
      - ColinWright 15y ago
        People do down-vote anything they disagree with, and there's nothing that can stop that. You can't change people's behavior. However, removing the ability to down-vote won't really change anything in this regard, except that it will stop people from feeling attacked when they get a down-vote. What would change is that there would be no feedback about genuinely inappropriate comments, and I think that would be bad. The only thing I can think of is to separate "down-vote" (meaning "of little value") from "inappropriate", label them clearly as such, and have the consequences of a "down-vote" less apparent and less severe. Then you can only trust that the behavior will sort itself as the "community" decides on the meaning of "inappropriate" and "of little value."
        JoachimSchipper 15y ago
        I think the "canonical" solution is changing the audience by migrating to a new site...
        ColinWright 15y ago
        That may yet happen/be happening.
      - JoachimSchipper 15y ago
        "Dissenting view" is "Ruby is badly-engineered", "the poor remain poor chiefly because of a lack of discipline" or "PHP is extremely useful": you may or may not agree, but there are serious arguments to be made for those positions (and there is some degree of truth to each of them), and reasonable people can and do disagree on these issues. On the other hand, "int i = INT_MAX + 1" is factually wrong, and you could link to the standard to prove it. Similarly, "the Sun orbits the earth" is factually wrong (to the extent that it's meaningful, at least). Yes, there are edge cases, and yes, people tend to think that what they believe in is "obviously" the only right thing to believe in; but that doesn't mean that there's no difference at all.
- jinushaun 15y ago
  Time and time again, Slashdot's voting system shows that it's superior to these simple up/down voting systems. Not all up votes are equal, nor are all down votes simply because you disagree with the content.
  - ColinWright 15y ago
    I, and I'm sure many others here also, am unfamiliar with SlashDot's system. Could you point to a summary? Perhaps simply edit your comment to include one. Thanks.
    - thomasz 15y ago
      "Randomly selected moderators assign points of either −1 or +1 to each comment, based on whether the comment is perceived as either normal, offtopic, insightful, redundant, interesting, or troll (among others)."(Wikipedia) Interesting approach...

ColinWright 15y ago

I would be interested in knowing how much of your description is deduction on your part, and how much is received fact from definitive sources. I would be interested in knowing how and why your comment was deemed "bad." I don't know of any definitive cases where someone made a comment that was appropriate, got vast numbers of down-votes, and then got banned because of it. I know of many people who have complained about being banned, only to discover that it wasn't the case. I do know of many people who present dissenting views, but present them carefully and constructively, and who do not attract down-votes because of their comments. They work hard to get people to think first, and not to react with a jerk of the knee (so to speak). It is possible. I've seen it. It's not easy, and I suspect not everyone can do it. In short, it's unclear that your beliefs about the situation are accurate - there are many ways to get these things wrong. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying that your view about down-votes may not be accurate. And no, I don't think down-votes should be removed, although I frequently don't understand how they are being used.

mrvc 15y ago
Take as an example some comments I made prior to making this post in the climate change thread currently on the frontpage (ice age). Although I have now deleted these, I simply stated that climate change prediction was uncertain due to the number of factors involved. A simple 2 line or so comment in reply to a poster asking why conflicting views existed on the subject. I believe it was of value (it answered his/her question, yet was of course an unpopular opninion to hold. A few minutes later it hit -1. I won't be repeating the mistake of thinking I can discuss a matter openly here and believe downvoting adds nothing to a discussion (in contrast to upvoting which can be very useful for sorting comments).
- JoachimSchipper 15y ago
  That is not a very valuable comment, though. You may have received a better score if you posted a not-so-valuable comment defending a popular position, but that doesn't mean that well-argued defences of unpopular positions receive the same treatment. Being downvoted has a much higher emotional impact than being upvoted, but it does help with sorting comments, obviously.

plasma 15y ago

How do you even downvote, do you need a certain level of karma?

JoachimSchipper 15y ago
Yes, you need some amount of karma. This was 200 at one point, but I seem to recall that it's ~500 now.

ryall 15y ago

How about a limited amount of down-votes allocated to each member to dish out? Possibly tiered based on karma level? Perhaps a member that down-votes a comment loses karma if the comment is then up-voted by other members (ie deemed an unfair down-vote by others)?

peterhi 15y ago
The only problem here is that you are assuming only one point of view is correct. So if I down vote you because I believe what you are saying is wrong but a lot of supporters of your view up vote then I will be punished for having a discenting (or at least less popular) view. Is this what you had in mind?
- jonafato 15y ago
  Therein lies the the problem though. It seems to be the general consensus that people should down vote only for unhelpful / irrelevant / factually incorrect comments, however voting is used to show agreement / disagreement. Before voting, I usually ask myself why I'm doing this. If it's to promote an opinion, I leave it alone.
  - ryall 15y ago
    Exactly. Down-voting is not to show disagreement, it's to cull comments that don't contribute to the discussion. What I'm proposing would hopefully make people question their motives before down-voting.

cageface 15y ago

I'd like to see it disappear, personally. The really bad comments tend to sink to the bottom of the page anyway and increasingly downvoting is being used capriciously and vindictively to ding opinions people just don't happen to agree with.

steventruong 15y ago
I agree with this. It irks me a bit that people would downvote simply because they have a different view. Sometimes completely unwarranted when the view or opinion does not affect the outcome of the thread or conversation. I would rather have downvoting removed completely as well.

fogus 15y ago

Am I missing something? Isn't one way to fix downvoting to make them subtractive for both parties?

ColinWright 15y ago
Then if something is on-topic but content-free, why would I bother to flag it? How do I get rewarded for doing the right thing? Why should I not just leave it to someone else? The idea is to reward correct behavior, whereas your suggestion punishes it.
- fogus 15y ago
  Yeah, you're probably right. I was hoping for the simple solution, but came up short. I can say that I personally wouldn't mind sacrificing my own karma to downvote someone who really deserves it.
rcfox 15y ago
I wonder if you're referring to the Stack Overflow decision to do this. They've made several strange modifications to their reputation system since the beginning, and I'm not sure any of them have really added value: paying for downvotes, daily reputation caps, etc. All of these tweaks to the reputation system are to encourage a certain kind of behaviour, but I'm not sure it's the right kind of behaviour. Does it make sense to stop someone from providing answers when they are clearly good at it? I find that, for myself, when I cast a downvote on Stack Overflow, I see an opportunity for 9 more free downvotes. (I'm a little OCD about having a score that's divisible by 10.)

codabrink 15y ago

People on HN are way too keen to downvoting. Down votes should be used to filter out bad/thoughtless comments, not viewpoints that don't necessarily agree with yours. I've seen a lot of valuable input grayed out on this site.

steventruong 15y ago
I agree except bad/thoughtless can be subjective.
- mentat 15y ago
  What's wrong with people making subjective judgments about the work of others in a community they share? You have to have a certain level of karma to down vote, which means (theoretically) you have to have done things that created sufficient value for at least some people and hopefully learned about what the existing group values.
  - steventruong 15y ago
    Getting total karma count isn't difficult. People whose been around long enough will eventually accummulate the number needed if they interact in any way at all

maresca 15y ago

Downvoting is used often for dissenting views nowadays. Personally, I don't care that much if my comments are downvoted. This is just another forum on the internet. I'd rather voice my opinion and get downvoted than not voice my opinion at all. That being said, I'd like to see the downvoting be removed. Go ahead and downvote my comment.

ColinWright 15y ago
From http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html In Comments ... Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downmod you.
- maresca 15y ago
  Irony is dead.
  - ColinWright 15y ago
    Did you not perceive the irony in my comment? I guess it was more post-ironic or meta-irony - bit tricky to detect.

NoItAll 15y ago

In the grand scheme of things, why on Earth do you care if an account was down-voted? Personally, I see this as a bad sign that people in general are very immature and do not have an adult grasp on reality. People who care about getting 'down-voted' frighten me. Comment trolled perhaps? It's hard to say. ColinWright: are you really this bored with life? I like to contribute, but really.. I don't care what people thing of my comments, they are just comments on a random website.

rcfox 15y ago
This comment would be more persuasive if it weren't coming from a newly-created account.
- NoItAll 15y ago
  Why on Earth would you say that? Not sure which reality 'newly-created accounts' have any weight, but not among adults. Please get over yourselves. Such hubris!

hammock 15y ago

I ask because following that incident I will no longer be presenting dissenting views here, irrespective of perceived value. Having a positive points value is more important to you than interesting debate? Boy do you have your priorities backwards. Don't let a downvote stop you from posting your ideas, that's ridiculous.

Mz 15y ago

I ask because following that incident I will no longer be presenting dissenting views here, irrespective of perceived value. Presenting a dissenting opinion is an art form. It takes practice. I do a lot of it. I never really fit in anywhere I go. An awful lot of my views do not fit into whatever the 'typical' assumptions are on a topic and this means that no matter what I say, both sides often wind up kicking the crap out of me. Some tips, should you decide you would like to try again: Don't be argumentative about it. Present your views as a standing-on-your-own-two-feet position, not a shooting-down-the-opposition thing. Show some respect -- agree to disagree, make no attempt to "win people over", much less "win". Stick to the issues. When you dissent, inevitably there will be enormous social pressure swirling around your lack of going along to get along. Anyone who speaks to you will likely try to put all kinds of crap on you about what they think you are saying. Politely clarify, as many times as it takes. Judge the timing and context carefully. There is a time and place to offer an alternate point of view. There are other times and places where it's so not worth it. Word your dissent very carefully. If your goal is to get people to really think and not just punch buttons, like it or not, the burden is on the minority voice to make an effort to communicate effectively. If you are going along with the majority opinion, you can express yourself sloppily and people won't care. But when stating a minority opinion, you must be extra careful to work at communicating effectively and intentionally avoid punching people's buttons so as to have some hope of actually being heard.

nsomaru 15y ago

Perhaps it's also about _how_ you present a view. Using words such as "perhaps" and "consider" allow people to more easily receive the thought that you are attempting to convey.