7 ms·

Base load is just a made up convention though closely related to traditional fixed rate prices, and may become increasingly fictional in the future as demand ad

Base load is just a made up convention though closely related to traditional fixed rate prices, and may become increasingly fictional in the future as demand adapts to more variable supply and dynamic pricing.

tpmx 6y ago
> Base load is just a made up convention. Seriously.
- fulafel 6y ago
  Ok, bad wording. How about: It emerges from conventional fixed supply. In any case it's no law of nature. So not a concept that is necessarily relevant in the furure.
  - oblio 6y ago
    Base load results from demand, not from supply. You positively, absolutely must provide a certain amount of power at all times. > In any case it's no law of nature. Yes it is. It's a law of human nature :-)
    - fulafel 6y ago
      The relationship of supply and demand in the grid is an equation, if they don't match you get blackouts or other funky things. When you have dynamic pricing, variable supply works out, as nobody is obligated to produce any fixed amount of power. Yeah,base load still exists as in the dictionary definition (floor of aggregate power supply and demand), but it ceases to be a fixed level that is a hard production quota.
      - stale2002 6y ago
        > When you have dynamic pricing, variable supply works out, as nobody is obligated to produce any fixed amount of power. No, thats not really how it works out. Baseload should actually be called baseload demand. The idea of baseload demand, is that there is some minimum level of electricity, that will always be demanded, almost no matter how high prices go. Or, in other words, there is some about electricity demand is very inelastic. So no, you can't just increase electricity costs. Because then electricity costs will massively spike, and cause huge amounts of problems. You are massively underestimating the amount of problems and costs that it would put in people for demand to be as elastic as you want it to be. It would be way cheaper and better for everyone, if there was simply enough baseload supply to meet the baseload demand.
        tpmx 6y ago
        I think the situation in Texas recently illustrated this pretty well.
        fulafel 6y ago
        Texas illustrated what happens in the current old system if there are unexpected drops due to breakdowns in supply when consumers are relying on affordable supply following consumption. Pricing can't fix a situation like that.
        fulafel 6y ago
        Big problems maybe at first sight, but there are many ways of overcoming them. When automated price following behaviour is implemented in eg AC and heating and car charging systems, the spikes will be greatly lessened. Also, energy storage actors can sell into spikes, which will work to clip the spikes and encourage investment into energy storage.
- deleted 6y ago
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- deleted 6y ago
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oblio 6y ago
> demand adapts to more variable supply and dynamic pricing You want demand to adapt? I'm supposed to turn the lights out when the wind's not blowing, or what? Demand shouldn't adapt, supply should adapt. Connect more and bigger power grids, add energy storage to the grid in large enough quantities. Your "solution" is like telling people to give up cars. They won't.
- fulafel 6y ago
  Yes, you get the gist of my position (for cars too).
  - tpmx 6y ago
    So when it gets really cold and there's little wind, we'll freeze to death? Gotcha.
    - fulafel 6y ago
      People who decided to use directly grid electricity for heating but are not willing or able to pay for it during cold spells will find they have a summer house. Consumers can of course have electricity contracts that have fixed monthly prices as a derivative bought from electricity market actors. As the transition doesn't happen overnight, people and the social safety net will have time to cope and adapt. In cold climates people have increasingly well insulated houses that are relatively affordable to heat, and mostly use non grid electric heating. And can also shift power usage around the day because it takes a day or so for the house to cool uncomfortably.
      - tpmx 6y ago
        Well, it's good that you're transparent. People should abandon their homes because of your policy. Which energy sources that emit less co2/kWh than nuclear power should be used to heat houses in that case? > (In cold climates people have well insulated houses that are relatively affordable to heat, and mostly use non electricity heating, like thus far) What are talking about? What kind of non-electricity heating? Let's burn some coal or what? I'm in Sweden. It gets cold. Houses are well insulated and typically heated via quite efficient electric air-to-air or air-to-water heat pumps. Our electricity has been like 98% co2 neutral since the 70s because of a 50/50 mix of hydro and nuclear as a base load. Now, ironically, the leftist politicians (including the green party) here are dismantling all of this because they and the journalists don't understand the concept of base power, because they don't understand the difference between power and energy. Their solution is to build lots and lots of wind power plants.
tsimionescu 6y ago
So you believe the grid can be said to be working well with occasional dips to 0MWh? Or is some base load in fact an obvious necessity? You may argue that the current value of the base load is artificially high, but there obviously is some fundamental base load given by the kinds of consumers you have.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > So you believe the grid can be said to be working well with occasional dips to 0MWh? With distributed generation and storage, yes, it's plausible to have periods of 0MW grid demand. > there obviously is some fundamental base load given by the kinds of consumers you have. The kinds of consumers you have are not a fixed quantity; particularly their on-site use, generation, and storage patterns all vary over time.
  - tsimionescu 6y ago
    I'm talking about 0 MWh for the entire grid, which includes all of the distributed generators. So, by definition, shutting down each and every piece of electric equipment connected to the entire grid. You truly believe that is a tenable position? If not, than you must accept there exists some necessary base load. That can be provided from base production like it is today, or it could theoretically be provided from storage and over-production in a hypothetical renweables-only grid.
- fulafel 6y ago
  It's unlikely to hit 0 even at night, no reason to stop all the windmills and hydro, and there will be stored energy buyers and sellers. But there won't be production guarantees to some level based on anticipated demand.
  - tsimionescu 6y ago
    I know it's unlikely, but the point was that there exists some minimum need of energy, even in the most flexible grid imaginable, some base load necessary.

tpmx 6y ago

> Base load is just a made up convention. Seriously.

fulafel 6y ago
Ok, bad wording. How about: It emerges from conventional fixed supply. In any case it's no law of nature. So not a concept that is necessarily relevant in the furure.
- oblio 6y ago
  Base load results from demand, not from supply. You positively, absolutely must provide a certain amount of power at all times. > In any case it's no law of nature. Yes it is. It's a law of human nature :-)
  - fulafel 6y ago
    The relationship of supply and demand in the grid is an equation, if they don't match you get blackouts or other funky things. When you have dynamic pricing, variable supply works out, as nobody is obligated to produce any fixed amount of power. Yeah,base load still exists as in the dictionary definition (floor of aggregate power supply and demand), but it ceases to be a fixed level that is a hard production quota.
    - stale2002 6y ago
      > When you have dynamic pricing, variable supply works out, as nobody is obligated to produce any fixed amount of power. No, thats not really how it works out. Baseload should actually be called baseload demand. The idea of baseload demand, is that there is some minimum level of electricity, that will always be demanded, almost no matter how high prices go. Or, in other words, there is some about electricity demand is very inelastic. So no, you can't just increase electricity costs. Because then electricity costs will massively spike, and cause huge amounts of problems. You are massively underestimating the amount of problems and costs that it would put in people for demand to be as elastic as you want it to be. It would be way cheaper and better for everyone, if there was simply enough baseload supply to meet the baseload demand.
      - tpmx 6y ago
        I think the situation in Texas recently illustrated this pretty well.
        fulafel 6y ago
        Texas illustrated what happens in the current old system if there are unexpected drops due to breakdowns in supply when consumers are relying on affordable supply following consumption. Pricing can't fix a situation like that.
      - fulafel 6y ago
        Big problems maybe at first sight, but there are many ways of overcoming them. When automated price following behaviour is implemented in eg AC and heating and car charging systems, the spikes will be greatly lessened. Also, energy storage actors can sell into spikes, which will work to clip the spikes and encourage investment into energy storage.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

oblio 6y ago

> demand adapts to more variable supply and dynamic pricing You want demand to adapt? I'm supposed to turn the lights out when the wind's not blowing, or what? Demand shouldn't adapt, supply should adapt. Connect more and bigger power grids, add energy storage to the grid in large enough quantities. Your "solution" is like telling people to give up cars. They won't.

fulafel 6y ago
Yes, you get the gist of my position (for cars too).
- tpmx 6y ago
  So when it gets really cold and there's little wind, we'll freeze to death? Gotcha.
  - fulafel 6y ago
    People who decided to use directly grid electricity for heating but are not willing or able to pay for it during cold spells will find they have a summer house. Consumers can of course have electricity contracts that have fixed monthly prices as a derivative bought from electricity market actors. As the transition doesn't happen overnight, people and the social safety net will have time to cope and adapt. In cold climates people have increasingly well insulated houses that are relatively affordable to heat, and mostly use non grid electric heating. And can also shift power usage around the day because it takes a day or so for the house to cool uncomfortably.
    - tpmx 6y ago
      Well, it's good that you're transparent. People should abandon their homes because of your policy. Which energy sources that emit less co2/kWh than nuclear power should be used to heat houses in that case? > (In cold climates people have well insulated houses that are relatively affordable to heat, and mostly use non electricity heating, like thus far) What are talking about? What kind of non-electricity heating? Let's burn some coal or what? I'm in Sweden. It gets cold. Houses are well insulated and typically heated via quite efficient electric air-to-air or air-to-water heat pumps. Our electricity has been like 98% co2 neutral since the 70s because of a 50/50 mix of hydro and nuclear as a base load. Now, ironically, the leftist politicians (including the green party) here are dismantling all of this because they and the journalists don't understand the concept of base power, because they don't understand the difference between power and energy. Their solution is to build lots and lots of wind power plants.

tsimionescu 6y ago

So you believe the grid can be said to be working well with occasional dips to 0MWh? Or is some base load in fact an obvious necessity? You may argue that the current value of the base load is artificially high, but there obviously is some fundamental base load given by the kinds of consumers you have.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> So you believe the grid can be said to be working well with occasional dips to 0MWh? With distributed generation and storage, yes, it's plausible to have periods of 0MW grid demand. > there obviously is some fundamental base load given by the kinds of consumers you have. The kinds of consumers you have are not a fixed quantity; particularly their on-site use, generation, and storage patterns all vary over time.
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  I'm talking about 0 MWh for the entire grid, which includes all of the distributed generators. So, by definition, shutting down each and every piece of electric equipment connected to the entire grid. You truly believe that is a tenable position? If not, than you must accept there exists some necessary base load. That can be provided from base production like it is today, or it could theoretically be provided from storage and over-production in a hypothetical renweables-only grid.
fulafel 6y ago
It's unlikely to hit 0 even at night, no reason to stop all the windmills and hydro, and there will be stored energy buyers and sellers. But there won't be production guarantees to some level based on anticipated demand.
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  I know it's unlikely, but the point was that there exists some minimum need of energy, even in the most flexible grid imaginable, some base load necessary.