6 ms·

It's certainly a thorny issue though. If you're going to run any sort of welfare state, it's pretty hard to argue for totally open borders; it simply leads to

It's certainly a thorny issue though. If you're going to run any sort of welfare state, it's pretty hard to argue for totally open borders; it simply leads to financial ruin, as much of Europe has found out over the last 30 years (which is why European countries have swiftly and brutally tightened immigration policies). If you're giving away a lot of free stuff, you're forced to guess at which immigrants are going to be productive and contribute to your society and which are just there for the freebies. I've always found this cognitive dissonance interesting (particularly and recently evident in France): those who feel it's morally wrong not to support the poorest of their societies have no problem refusing to do the same for those who were born on the other side of an arbitrary stripe on a map.

paganel 15y ago
As an Eastern-European, I agree it's a thorny issue. But Westerners also have to agree that the "Trente Glorieuses" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trente_Glorieuses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trente_Glorieuses) couldn't have been possible without foreign workers, or, in the case of Italy, without the help of internal migration (from South to North).
shareme 15y ago
Unlike our past whereas a large amount of unskilled labor allowed companies to create new wealth...its now skilled labor that we need n immigration.. Unskilled labor immigration thus is and should be separate issue
- DannoHung 15y ago
  This certainly explains the explosion of manufacturing in China.
wlievens 15y ago
It's a cognitive dissonance born out of pragmatism (economics), hence the moral suspension.
StavrosK 15y ago
I don't think there's any dissonance. A nation is a group, and you may feel obliged to take care of the poorer people of your group, but not those of some other group that would not do the same for you.
cdavid 15y ago
Few serious people claim that European countries have been ruined by immigration. The reason for the political backlash has more to do with political motives, and economical changes which have nothing to do with immigration (sharp decrease of low-skill, high wage incomes, etc...).
- patrickgzill 15y ago
  Long term citizens of Malmo and certain Paris arrondissements disagree, I think. Just because you haven't read about the issue in a major US paper doesn't mean it doesn't happen. "Few serious people" make blanket claims of "few serious people claiming" without realizing they are engaging in a tactic meant to shame someone over expressing an unpopular idea.
  - cdavid 15y ago
    They disagree about what ? What does happen ? As far as unpopular idea go, I think "immigration is good for the economy" is pretty unpopular nowadays in France (and most European countries).
    - veeti 15y ago
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnP-XzB_U0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnP-XzB_U0 Ignore the stupid, racist comments.
      - rubashov 15y ago
        100% of rapes in Oslo over the last five years committed by Muslims. http://www.westernyouth.org/articles/shocking-all-rapes-in-oslo-committed-by-non-western-men/ http://www.westernyouth.org/articles/shocking-all-rapes-in-o...
        getsat 15y ago
        I find it highly distressing that the Nordic countries are putting up with this stuff.
yxhuvud 15y ago
It leads to financial ruin for welfare states? Then how is it that Sweden is one of the countries that accepts most immigrants per capita in Europe, but still has a good economy, and still have opened up policies even further during the last decade?
- getsat 15y ago
  Sweden's lax immigration policies are not without their own problems, though. Ghettos are forming within the major cities and crime is up across the board. Immigrants are refusing to adopt the culture. Norway also suffers from this problem, but to a lesser degree as they allow fewer immigrants. Anyone who wants to slow down or limit immigration is labeled as a racist in these countries. Here's an example posted in another thread here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2661027 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2661027 Keep in mind that Sweden is also using its own currency, not the fluctuating Euro. They're not responsible for bailing out insolvent member states like Germany is.
joebadmo 15y ago
"Give me your tired, your poor,/ Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,/ The wretched refuse of your teeming shore." While I don't grant your premise (that open borders in a welfare state lead to financial ruin), I think the US has a special consideration in that it was founded not on a race, ethnicity, or culture, but an ideology of self-evident truths. And immigrants.
- anonymous246 15y ago
  1) Was the US a welfare state when that poem was written? From seeing "Gangs of New York", I think not. :) 2) You do realize that Asians were excluded from immigrating to the US until very recently, right? http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/historyonline/immigration_chron.cfm http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/historyonline/immigration_c...
  - chriserin 15y ago
    That's a nice resource but I don't think it shows what you intended it to show. From that timeline all I gather is that the United States has always wavered between xenophobia and the need for labor.
    - rubashov 15y ago
      There were essentially four brief periods of high immigration in American history, usually lasting on the order of 20 years or less. Outside of those periods essentially zero immigration was the norm. From 1924 to 1965 immigration was zero (somehow business and technology advanced in America; not sure how). There were many such periods farther back.. Allowing only immigration from Western nations was the norm. We are now in the fourth decade of an unprecedented experiment with extraordinarily high immigration. The length of this wave and the volume of newcomers dwarfs all previous waves. This is also the first experiment with high numbers of non-Westerners, who to all indications do not appear to be assimilating and intermarrying as previous waves did. The lesson to take away from the history of American immigration is that immigration waves should be followed by long periods of zero immigration for assimilation.
karzeem 15y ago
From an economic perspective, open borders are highly desirable. But you're right that they're not really compatible with welfare programs. I don't know if it's ever been tried, but one solution would be an "open borders, but non-citizens aren't eligible for welfare until they've been here for, asy, 10 years" policy.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
chriserin 15y ago
The current European financial crisis has many more causes than immigration. In general, the causes fall in line with the US economic crisis causes: the housing bubble, an extended period of cheap money, no regulation of newly conceived financial instruments, etc. Immigration may have exacerbated these issues, but not more so than the monetary union.

paganel 15y ago

As an Eastern-European, I agree it's a thorny issue. But Westerners also have to agree that the "Trente Glorieuses" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trente_Glorieuses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trente_Glorieuses) couldn't have been possible without foreign workers, or, in the case of Italy, without the help of internal migration (from South to North).

shareme 15y ago

Unlike our past whereas a large amount of unskilled labor allowed companies to create new wealth...its now skilled labor that we need n immigration.. Unskilled labor immigration thus is and should be separate issue

DannoHung 15y ago
This certainly explains the explosion of manufacturing in China.

wlievens 15y ago

It's a cognitive dissonance born out of pragmatism (economics), hence the moral suspension.

StavrosK 15y ago

I don't think there's any dissonance. A nation is a group, and you may feel obliged to take care of the poorer people of your group, but not those of some other group that would not do the same for you.

cdavid 15y ago

Few serious people claim that European countries have been ruined by immigration. The reason for the political backlash has more to do with political motives, and economical changes which have nothing to do with immigration (sharp decrease of low-skill, high wage incomes, etc...).

patrickgzill 15y ago
Long term citizens of Malmo and certain Paris arrondissements disagree, I think. Just because you haven't read about the issue in a major US paper doesn't mean it doesn't happen. "Few serious people" make blanket claims of "few serious people claiming" without realizing they are engaging in a tactic meant to shame someone over expressing an unpopular idea.
- cdavid 15y ago
  They disagree about what ? What does happen ? As far as unpopular idea go, I think "immigration is good for the economy" is pretty unpopular nowadays in France (and most European countries).
  - veeti 15y ago
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnP-XzB_U0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnP-XzB_U0 Ignore the stupid, racist comments.
    - rubashov 15y ago
      100% of rapes in Oslo over the last five years committed by Muslims. http://www.westernyouth.org/articles/shocking-all-rapes-in-oslo-committed-by-non-western-men/ http://www.westernyouth.org/articles/shocking-all-rapes-in-o...
      - getsat 15y ago
        I find it highly distressing that the Nordic countries are putting up with this stuff.

yxhuvud 15y ago

It leads to financial ruin for welfare states? Then how is it that Sweden is one of the countries that accepts most immigrants per capita in Europe, but still has a good economy, and still have opened up policies even further during the last decade?

getsat 15y ago
Sweden's lax immigration policies are not without their own problems, though. Ghettos are forming within the major cities and crime is up across the board. Immigrants are refusing to adopt the culture. Norway also suffers from this problem, but to a lesser degree as they allow fewer immigrants. Anyone who wants to slow down or limit immigration is labeled as a racist in these countries. Here's an example posted in another thread here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2661027 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2661027 Keep in mind that Sweden is also using its own currency, not the fluctuating Euro. They're not responsible for bailing out insolvent member states like Germany is.

joebadmo 15y ago

"Give me your tired, your poor,/ Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,/ The wretched refuse of your teeming shore." While I don't grant your premise (that open borders in a welfare state lead to financial ruin), I think the US has a special consideration in that it was founded not on a race, ethnicity, or culture, but an ideology of self-evident truths. And immigrants.

anonymous246 15y ago
1) Was the US a welfare state when that poem was written? From seeing "Gangs of New York", I think not. :) 2) You do realize that Asians were excluded from immigrating to the US until very recently, right? http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/historyonline/immigration_chron.cfm http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/historyonline/immigration_c...
- chriserin 15y ago
  That's a nice resource but I don't think it shows what you intended it to show. From that timeline all I gather is that the United States has always wavered between xenophobia and the need for labor.
  - rubashov 15y ago
    There were essentially four brief periods of high immigration in American history, usually lasting on the order of 20 years or less. Outside of those periods essentially zero immigration was the norm. From 1924 to 1965 immigration was zero (somehow business and technology advanced in America; not sure how). There were many such periods farther back.. Allowing only immigration from Western nations was the norm. We are now in the fourth decade of an unprecedented experiment with extraordinarily high immigration. The length of this wave and the volume of newcomers dwarfs all previous waves. This is also the first experiment with high numbers of non-Westerners, who to all indications do not appear to be assimilating and intermarrying as previous waves did. The lesson to take away from the history of American immigration is that immigration waves should be followed by long periods of zero immigration for assimilation.

karzeem 15y ago

From an economic perspective, open borders are highly desirable. But you're right that they're not really compatible with welfare programs. I don't know if it's ever been tried, but one solution would be an "open borders, but non-citizens aren't eligible for welfare until they've been here for, asy, 10 years" policy.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

chriserin 15y ago

The current European financial crisis has many more causes than immigration. In general, the causes fall in line with the US economic crisis causes: the housing bubble, an extended period of cheap money, no regulation of newly conceived financial instruments, etc. Immigration may have exacerbated these issues, but not more so than the monetary union.