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Either way, a typical female dairy cow during its lifetime is made to give birth about 4 times (they don't give milk otherwise), each time its baby is taken awa

Either way, a typical female dairy cow during its lifetime is made to give birth about 4 times (they don't give milk otherwise), each time its baby is taken away so maximum milk can be harvested and then the mother is killed about 5 years into its 20 year lifespan when it stops producing as much milk. This is the reality of profitable dairy farming and people don't like to be told about it or think about it. If you think it's wrong that some countries kill dolphins, dogs, whales, cats, sharks, horses etc. for food or use foxes, minks, rabbits etc. for fur, you should ask yourself why cheese, milk and leather are okay.

novok 6y ago
Most of them are not farmed in a sustainable cycle that prevents those animals from become endangered species? Or they think of the animals as pet animals. As for fur, I'm guessing it's because a moral panic happened in the 80s and nobody really cared that much about fur, since it was a luxury item for a few, while meat, milk and leather somewhat is something that everyone pretty much still uses today worldwide.
- seanwilson 6y ago
  "Japan, Norway and Iceland who argue that whaling is part of their culture and should continue in a sustainable way." - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-45364696 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-45364696 Dogs, cats, foxes, mink and horses aren't endangered either, and the amount of meat developed countries eat is a luxury as well. My point is, if you're offended by the way other countries treat certain animals, you should think about if your use of animal products really aligns with your core beliefs or if you're going along with what's cultural to you without really thinking about it.
  - Swizec 6y ago
    Personally I’m not offended by how other countries treat non-endangered animals. I wouldnt eat dog, but totally understand how they’re basically a pest in some parts of the world. I do wish we find more humane ways to industrially raise livestock. Meat is way too cheap right now and we should reduce the intensity of its production. Humans dont need to eat meat at every meal like many of us do right now. It’s also a shame that we don’t breed dairy cows for more longevity. I’m sure they could be productive for almost all their natural lifespan if we let them. My grandparents had a small farm mostly for family use and it wasn’t uncommon to keep a cow for 10+ years. But they were treated almost lije pets. Each cow had a name and I think they rarely had more than 10 at a time. PS: horse burger is very tasty. I recommend trying it if you get a chance
  - mastazi 6y ago
    > Dogs, cats, foxes, mink and horses aren't endangered either And that's why I see no ethical issue there. > if you're offended by the way other countries treat certain animals, you should think about if your use of animal products really aligns with your core beliefs Being offended by something doesn't make it immoral though, it just makes it not advisable. I'm Italian and I grew up consuming rabbit meat and sometimes horse meat, my wife comes from a cultural background (Northern Thailand) where rabbit meat consumption is frowned upon, and I live in an anglophone country (Australia) where eating horse meat is taboo. So I don't consume either one of those. But I don't think it's immoral consuming them, I don't think my relatives in Italy who are still eating rabbit and horse are doing something immoral.
- sedachv 6y ago
  > milk… is something that everyone pretty much still uses today worldwide I don't understand where people come up with this nonsense. Do you just generalize your experience to everyone else? 68% of the world population is lactose intolerant: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28690131/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28690131/
  - gambiting 6y ago
    You might be surprised, but being lactose intolerant doesn't mean you don't consume milk. Lactose-free milk exists, tablets that allow you to consume lactose exist, and most importantly, even lactose intolerant people can usually eat a small amount without suffering ill effects. So someone who can't drink a glass of milk usually can eat some pastry made with milk. So just because 68% of humanity is lactose intolerant doesn't mean 68% of humanity doesn't consume milk in some form.
    - sedachv 6y ago
      Why do you think the genetic mutation for lactose tolerance is so geographically specific to Northern Europe? It is obviously an adaptation for when milk was the only available source of nutrition to those populations during times of famine. And the selection pressure for this is not ancient history - my grandparents experienced exactly that scenario due to food shortages during WWII. I don't know why you would advocate de-lactosed milk, lactase supplements, or "sneaking a little bit in" for the vast majority of people who are lactose intolerant, unless you had some agenda of pushing dairy on people who do not particularly want it and have no cultural traditions of consuming it. There is no reason for lactose tolerant people to eat dairy on a regular basis because it contributes to heart disease. Advocating it for those who are lactose intolerant is just insane.
      - gambiting 6y ago
        >>I don't know why you would advocate de-lactosed milk, lactase supplements, or "sneaking a little bit in" Are you definitely replying to the correct comment? I'm not advocating anything. I'm purely stating a fact that just because 68% of humanity is lactose intolerant doesn't mean 68% of humanity does not consume milk. I just said lactose free milk exists(because it does), lactose-digestion enzyme pills exist(because they do) and people with lactose intolerance can usually eat a little without suffering any bad effects(because most people can). Is stating facts propaganda now? >> unless you had some agenda of pushing dairy Yes you're absolutely right, my check from big milk industry will surely arrive any day now. You looked right through me.
bluefirebrand 6y ago
You've convinced me. I no longer care that some countries kill dolphins or whales or cats or whatever for food and foxes for fur.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- hombre_fatal 6y ago
  I hope you don’t think you’re pwning them by repeating their point back to them thinking they care that you don’t care about whales and dogs anymore. It’s pretty weak snark, especially because you’re pretending to do something that agrees with their point thinking you got them good. I saw this sad interaction a lot in the wild when someone at lunch at work orders a vegetarian option and someone else leaves them in absolute tatters by responding “good, I’m going to order extra meat ;)” as if anyone else feels responsible for his choices.
  - imwillofficial 6y ago
    He really got under your skin didn’t He? It was a joke my friend.
    - Judgmentality 6y ago
      Jokes aren't well tolerated on HN to begin with, and that comment seems a lot more obnoxious than funny.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - imwillofficial 6y ago
        You speak the truth.
        frombody 6y ago
mauvehaus 6y ago
It seems that leather is practically a (profitable) byproduct of the dairy industry in this case, no?
- seanwilson 6y ago
  The dairy industry is cruel and leather doesn't make up for that.
jiofih 6y ago
Also not what I’ve seen - calves are kept with the mother for obvious reasons until they are about 6 months old. They might be fed separately though. I’m comfortable with nature. Life is cyclic and you can’t survive without other living beings.

novok 6y ago

Most of them are not farmed in a sustainable cycle that prevents those animals from become endangered species? Or they think of the animals as pet animals. As for fur, I'm guessing it's because a moral panic happened in the 80s and nobody really cared that much about fur, since it was a luxury item for a few, while meat, milk and leather somewhat is something that everyone pretty much still uses today worldwide.

seanwilson 6y ago
"Japan, Norway and Iceland who argue that whaling is part of their culture and should continue in a sustainable way." - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-45364696 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-45364696 Dogs, cats, foxes, mink and horses aren't endangered either, and the amount of meat developed countries eat is a luxury as well. My point is, if you're offended by the way other countries treat certain animals, you should think about if your use of animal products really aligns with your core beliefs or if you're going along with what's cultural to you without really thinking about it.
- Swizec 6y ago
  Personally I’m not offended by how other countries treat non-endangered animals. I wouldnt eat dog, but totally understand how they’re basically a pest in some parts of the world. I do wish we find more humane ways to industrially raise livestock. Meat is way too cheap right now and we should reduce the intensity of its production. Humans dont need to eat meat at every meal like many of us do right now. It’s also a shame that we don’t breed dairy cows for more longevity. I’m sure they could be productive for almost all their natural lifespan if we let them. My grandparents had a small farm mostly for family use and it wasn’t uncommon to keep a cow for 10+ years. But they were treated almost lije pets. Each cow had a name and I think they rarely had more than 10 at a time. PS: horse burger is very tasty. I recommend trying it if you get a chance
- mastazi 6y ago
  > Dogs, cats, foxes, mink and horses aren't endangered either And that's why I see no ethical issue there. > if you're offended by the way other countries treat certain animals, you should think about if your use of animal products really aligns with your core beliefs Being offended by something doesn't make it immoral though, it just makes it not advisable. I'm Italian and I grew up consuming rabbit meat and sometimes horse meat, my wife comes from a cultural background (Northern Thailand) where rabbit meat consumption is frowned upon, and I live in an anglophone country (Australia) where eating horse meat is taboo. So I don't consume either one of those. But I don't think it's immoral consuming them, I don't think my relatives in Italy who are still eating rabbit and horse are doing something immoral.
sedachv 6y ago
> milk… is something that everyone pretty much still uses today worldwide I don't understand where people come up with this nonsense. Do you just generalize your experience to everyone else? 68% of the world population is lactose intolerant: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28690131/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28690131/
- gambiting 6y ago
  You might be surprised, but being lactose intolerant doesn't mean you don't consume milk. Lactose-free milk exists, tablets that allow you to consume lactose exist, and most importantly, even lactose intolerant people can usually eat a small amount without suffering ill effects. So someone who can't drink a glass of milk usually can eat some pastry made with milk. So just because 68% of humanity is lactose intolerant doesn't mean 68% of humanity doesn't consume milk in some form.
  - sedachv 6y ago
    Why do you think the genetic mutation for lactose tolerance is so geographically specific to Northern Europe? It is obviously an adaptation for when milk was the only available source of nutrition to those populations during times of famine. And the selection pressure for this is not ancient history - my grandparents experienced exactly that scenario due to food shortages during WWII. I don't know why you would advocate de-lactosed milk, lactase supplements, or "sneaking a little bit in" for the vast majority of people who are lactose intolerant, unless you had some agenda of pushing dairy on people who do not particularly want it and have no cultural traditions of consuming it. There is no reason for lactose tolerant people to eat dairy on a regular basis because it contributes to heart disease. Advocating it for those who are lactose intolerant is just insane.
    - gambiting 6y ago
      >>I don't know why you would advocate de-lactosed milk, lactase supplements, or "sneaking a little bit in" Are you definitely replying to the correct comment? I'm not advocating anything. I'm purely stating a fact that just because 68% of humanity is lactose intolerant doesn't mean 68% of humanity does not consume milk. I just said lactose free milk exists(because it does), lactose-digestion enzyme pills exist(because they do) and people with lactose intolerance can usually eat a little without suffering any bad effects(because most people can). Is stating facts propaganda now? >> unless you had some agenda of pushing dairy Yes you're absolutely right, my check from big milk industry will surely arrive any day now. You looked right through me.

bluefirebrand 6y ago

You've convinced me. I no longer care that some countries kill dolphins or whales or cats or whatever for food and foxes for fur.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
hombre_fatal 6y ago
I hope you don’t think you’re pwning them by repeating their point back to them thinking they care that you don’t care about whales and dogs anymore. It’s pretty weak snark, especially because you’re pretending to do something that agrees with their point thinking you got them good. I saw this sad interaction a lot in the wild when someone at lunch at work orders a vegetarian option and someone else leaves them in absolute tatters by responding “good, I’m going to order extra meat ;)” as if anyone else feels responsible for his choices.
- imwillofficial 6y ago
  He really got under your skin didn’t He? It was a joke my friend.
  - Judgmentality 6y ago
    Jokes aren't well tolerated on HN to begin with, and that comment seems a lot more obnoxious than funny.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - imwillofficial 6y ago
      You speak the truth.
      - frombody 6y ago

mauvehaus 6y ago

It seems that leather is practically a (profitable) byproduct of the dairy industry in this case, no?

seanwilson 6y ago
The dairy industry is cruel and leather doesn't make up for that.

jiofih 6y ago

Also not what I’ve seen - calves are kept with the mother for obvious reasons until they are about 6 months old. They might be fed separately though. I’m comfortable with nature. Life is cyclic and you can’t survive without other living beings.