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Trump is planning a major protest. The FBI says there are threats of violence. What do you do? 1) Accept the offer from the national guard et. al. and make p

by jariel 6y ago

Trump is planning a major protest. The FBI says there are threats of violence. What do you do? 1) Accept the offer from the national guard et. al. and make preparations? 2) Refuse and say it's all good. The Mayor of DC and capitol police had every offer and chance to make basic preparations such that the National Guard would not have to be called in. [1] I'm not sure about the actions of the DoD, but I wouldn't find it hard to believe that that bureaucracy took a few hours to really move. The national guard is not something you can press a button and they magically appear. They offered to be present, they were turned down beforehand. I blame Trump for the entirety of this, he's the poison in the swamp, but there's no doubt the city leadership made a huge mistake in lack of preparation. [1] https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/america-votes/u-s-capitol-police-rejected-offers-of-federal-help-to-quell-mob-1.5257994 https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/america-votes/u-s-capitol-polic...

dragontamer 6y ago
You are talking about mistakes on January 5th. I'm talking about mistakes on January 6th. Trump was still in charge of the DC National Guard on January 6th, and refused to authorize help. This refusal to authorize help meant that Virginia / Maryland national guard was unable to help until 5pm as well. I understand that it takes hours for military to prepare and brief, but Maryland / Virginia national guard was ready by 3pm IIRC, and just waiting for DC-National Guard (aka: DoD) authorization. > I'm not sure about the actions of the DoD, but I wouldn't find it hard to believe that that bureaucracy took a few hours to really move. All it needed was a phone call from Trump, who has the ultimate authority as the President, and the seat as commander-in-chief.
- jariel 6y ago
  Yes, we agree that Trump's action were deplorable, borderline treasonous/seditious. But why are so many unwilling to admit/conceded/realize that the US Capitol was very clearly warned of impending problems, and refused help in a very public way. If this were any different, 'normal' president that had a rally that got out of hand, we would be blaming the officials who were straight up told of problems in preparation. Also, very unfortunately, this situation very well shows us how 'freedom of expression' has a dark side as well, in that it allows people to orchestrate violence. It's rare, but it it will happen. So we have to 'find a way' to not have the VP almost assassinated while not becoming China. It's a problem.
  - dragontamer 6y ago
    > But why are so many unwilling to admit/conceded/realize that the US Capitol was very clearly warned of impending problems, and refused help in a very public way. Because on January 5th, the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys weren't considered a threat. That changed on January 6th. I still remember the debates when Biden pointed out that the Proud Boys could be a threat on national TV. Within my circle of friends, that caused some debate. I've had only minor experiences with the Proud Boys: but I generally remember them as those dumbasses with guns at protests (and I didn't really think of them as a threat, especially in a town like DC where marching with guns is illegal). True story: the general feeling in my circle of friends was that Biden was exaggerating the threat. None of us were proud of Trump's answer either, but for Biden to call them out explicitly still seemed unusual. Of course, that changed on January 6th when Proud Boys / Oath Keepers invaded the capitol and demonstrated themselves to be a threat. --------------- In hindsight: we all had a blind spot for the damage right-wing protesters could cause. They've been marching for years with guns and getting rowdier and rowdier. But I think we generally still trusted them to "do the right thing". Generally speaking, we do want to support the police. And seeing people march with pro-police signs is usually a decent thing (racism of Blue Lives Matter vs Black Lives Matter aside, I don't think anyone disagrees with the core message of "Police matter" and "African Americans matter"). It isn't until one of those groups starts beating literal Police officers with their Blue-lives matter flags before we realize that they too were just in the political game, playing us all along.
    - jariel 6y ago
      "Because on January 5th, the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys weren't considered a threat. That changed on January 6th." This is not true. "FBI alert about possible ‘war’ against Congress reached D.C. and Capitol Police on eve of attack, deepening security questions" [1] "FBI, NYPD told Capitol Police about possibility of violence before riot, senior officials say" [2] The FBI issued direct warnings to the Capitol Hill police and others, including such language: "The FBI issued a report from its Norfolk, Va., field office on Jan. 5 that detailed specific calls for violence on Jan. 6, including those that suggested protesters go to the Capitol “ready for war.” [3] Literally 'ready for war'. “We did communicate that information in a timely fashion to the Capitol Police and MPD in not one, not two, but three different ways,” (FBI statement) [4] There's clear evidence that the FBI made a stark warning + assessment and made every attempt to communicate it. Former Capitol Hill Police Chief Steven Sund says that he 'didn't get the memo' but admitted his agency actually did, that he didn't see it himself. It seems pretty clear that the Capitol Hill police and DC Government were informed of the severe potentiality and should have at least had reinforcements or communication channels open if needed. It's hard to know what exact actions they could have taken, but at very least having supplementary support at the ready would have been prudent, rather than have to wait hours for DoD etc. to start moving gears. FYI "True story: the general feeling in my circle of friends " None of us really believed the Proud Boys were that big of a threat - but 'your friends' opinions (and mine) don't matter really, do they? When the FBI is submitting clear and stark intelligence information, that's what matters. It's not about 'how we felt' it's about the material and actionable information available. Finally here is the DC Mayor's public statement indicating she doesn't want/need further support, and that they are prepared. Dated Jan 5. [5] [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/capitol-riot-intelligence/2021/02/23/1cdfd126-75f4-11eb-ae66-8b9e3c6918a1_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/capitol-riot-intelli... [2] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/fbi-nypd-told-capitol-police-about-possibility-violence-riot-senior-n1253646 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/fbi-nypd-told-capi... [3] https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/540081-ex-capitol-police-chief-did-not-get-fbi-report-warning-of-violence https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/540081-ex-capit... [4] https://www.rollcall.com/2021/03/03/capitol-police-chief-disputes-fbis-account-of-pre-insurrection-warnings/ https://www.rollcall.com/2021/03/03/capitol-police-chief-dis... [5] https://twitter.com/mayorbowser/status/1346530358674792466?lang=en https://twitter.com/mayorbowser/status/1346530358674792466?l...

by jariel 6y ago

dragontamer 6y ago

You are talking about mistakes on January 5th. I'm talking about mistakes on January 6th. Trump was still in charge of the DC National Guard on January 6th, and refused to authorize help. This refusal to authorize help meant that Virginia / Maryland national guard was unable to help until 5pm as well. I understand that it takes hours for military to prepare and brief, but Maryland / Virginia national guard was ready by 3pm IIRC, and just waiting for DC-National Guard (aka: DoD) authorization. > I'm not sure about the actions of the DoD, but I wouldn't find it hard to believe that that bureaucracy took a few hours to really move. All it needed was a phone call from Trump, who has the ultimate authority as the President, and the seat as commander-in-chief.

jariel 6y ago
Yes, we agree that Trump's action were deplorable, borderline treasonous/seditious. But why are so many unwilling to admit/conceded/realize that the US Capitol was very clearly warned of impending problems, and refused help in a very public way. If this were any different, 'normal' president that had a rally that got out of hand, we would be blaming the officials who were straight up told of problems in preparation. Also, very unfortunately, this situation very well shows us how 'freedom of expression' has a dark side as well, in that it allows people to orchestrate violence. It's rare, but it it will happen. So we have to 'find a way' to not have the VP almost assassinated while not becoming China. It's a problem.
- dragontamer 6y ago
  > But why are so many unwilling to admit/conceded/realize that the US Capitol was very clearly warned of impending problems, and refused help in a very public way. Because on January 5th, the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys weren't considered a threat. That changed on January 6th. I still remember the debates when Biden pointed out that the Proud Boys could be a threat on national TV. Within my circle of friends, that caused some debate. I've had only minor experiences with the Proud Boys: but I generally remember them as those dumbasses with guns at protests (and I didn't really think of them as a threat, especially in a town like DC where marching with guns is illegal). True story: the general feeling in my circle of friends was that Biden was exaggerating the threat. None of us were proud of Trump's answer either, but for Biden to call them out explicitly still seemed unusual. Of course, that changed on January 6th when Proud Boys / Oath Keepers invaded the capitol and demonstrated themselves to be a threat. --------------- In hindsight: we all had a blind spot for the damage right-wing protesters could cause. They've been marching for years with guns and getting rowdier and rowdier. But I think we generally still trusted them to "do the right thing". Generally speaking, we do want to support the police. And seeing people march with pro-police signs is usually a decent thing (racism of Blue Lives Matter vs Black Lives Matter aside, I don't think anyone disagrees with the core message of "Police matter" and "African Americans matter"). It isn't until one of those groups starts beating literal Police officers with their Blue-lives matter flags before we realize that they too were just in the political game, playing us all along.
  - jariel 6y ago
    "Because on January 5th, the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys weren't considered a threat. That changed on January 6th." This is not true. "FBI alert about possible ‘war’ against Congress reached D.C. and Capitol Police on eve of attack, deepening security questions" [1] "FBI, NYPD told Capitol Police about possibility of violence before riot, senior officials say" [2] The FBI issued direct warnings to the Capitol Hill police and others, including such language: "The FBI issued a report from its Norfolk, Va., field office on Jan. 5 that detailed specific calls for violence on Jan. 6, including those that suggested protesters go to the Capitol “ready for war.” [3] Literally 'ready for war'. “We did communicate that information in a timely fashion to the Capitol Police and MPD in not one, not two, but three different ways,” (FBI statement) [4] There's clear evidence that the FBI made a stark warning + assessment and made every attempt to communicate it. Former Capitol Hill Police Chief Steven Sund says that he 'didn't get the memo' but admitted his agency actually did, that he didn't see it himself. It seems pretty clear that the Capitol Hill police and DC Government were informed of the severe potentiality and should have at least had reinforcements or communication channels open if needed. It's hard to know what exact actions they could have taken, but at very least having supplementary support at the ready would have been prudent, rather than have to wait hours for DoD etc. to start moving gears. FYI "True story: the general feeling in my circle of friends " None of us really believed the Proud Boys were that big of a threat - but 'your friends' opinions (and mine) don't matter really, do they? When the FBI is submitting clear and stark intelligence information, that's what matters. It's not about 'how we felt' it's about the material and actionable information available. Finally here is the DC Mayor's public statement indicating she doesn't want/need further support, and that they are prepared. Dated Jan 5. [5] [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/capitol-riot-intelligence/2021/02/23/1cdfd126-75f4-11eb-ae66-8b9e3c6918a1_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/capitol-riot-intelli... [2] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/fbi-nypd-told-capitol-police-about-possibility-violence-riot-senior-n1253646 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/fbi-nypd-told-capi... [3] https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/540081-ex-capitol-police-chief-did-not-get-fbi-report-warning-of-violence https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/540081-ex-capit... [4] https://www.rollcall.com/2021/03/03/capitol-police-chief-disputes-fbis-account-of-pre-insurrection-warnings/ https://www.rollcall.com/2021/03/03/capitol-police-chief-dis... [5] https://twitter.com/mayorbowser/status/1346530358674792466?lang=en https://twitter.com/mayorbowser/status/1346530358674792466?l...