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> You don’t really believe the peeing in bottles thing, do you? If that were true, nobody would work for us. > The truth is that we have over a million incredi

> You don’t really believe the peeing in bottles thing, do you? If that were true, nobody would work for us. > The truth is that we have over a million incredible employees around the world who are proud of what they do, and have great wages and health care from day one. Amazon's PR (one of the best in the industry) at its finest. Minimize/deny/ignore the issue raised, and quickly bridge to something else entirely. Disclaimer: worked at AWS 2008-2014. Opinions my own.

nerdponx 6y ago
Ah, the old economics joke: > Two economists are walking down the street, when they pass buy a luxury car dealership. One economist says, "I really want that Ferrari!" The other economist replies, "Clearly you don't!" And the other one that isn't as relevant but is funny: > Two economists are walking down the street, when one of them sees something on the ground. She says, "hey, is that a $20 bill on the ground?" The other economist replies, "obviously not, otherwise someone would have picked it up already!"
- WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
  Never heard the first one, but it makes sense.
- neartheplain 6y ago
  Does the first joke refer to the fact that if they wanted the Ferrari they’d have bought it already, or that if they really wanted the Ferrari, they’d have chosen a more lucrative profession than economics?
  - madaxe_again 6y ago
    The former - it’s a dig at “efficient markets”.
    - nerdponx 6y ago
      More specifically, the first one is a dig at anyone who tries to infer preferences from behavior, without considering or knowing the full set of alternatives available to the individual. In this case, even a well-paid tenured economist probably could not afford the Ferrari without making some significant sacrifices elsewhere. So it's not that they are choosing between "Ferrari" and "no Ferrari", it's that they are choosing between "Ferrari and I don't have any money and my wife leaves me" and "no Ferrari and I keep my retirement savings and my wife doesn't leave me." The relevance here is that, for some people, their best option might actually be "stay at horrible job at Amazon where I'm forced to piss in a bottle", not because they like pissing in bottles, but because the alternatives are actually worse. The only thing you can tell from a person's behavior is that, to that person at that particular time, whatever they did/chose seemed like the best option.
whoknew1122 6y ago
Disclaimer: Work at AWS now. Opinion my own, and I have both good and bad things about my employer. I also have extreme reservations about capitalism. 1.) This is all competent PR. PR is there to cast the employer in a good light, and bait-and-switch is a tactic used since before there was a formalized PR industry. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon PR was going to next say 'most of our drivers aren't Amazon employees. We can't control how subcontractors act.' Which is a technically true statement, but misses the point. 2.) The context of this article is recent comments from Amazon's social media team and a director. In an incredibly large organization like Amazon, a director (and members of the social media team) is going to be far removed from the realities of package deliverers. To give the director and social media team the benefit of the doubt, they could be speaking the truth as they believe it. Members of the social media team probably wouldn't work in a position wherein they're forced to urinate in bottles. The director probably isn't aware of the 'leaked document'--which was really just an email sent to an unknown audience. But they typically won't send those types of emails to directors, because they don't want directors to know that stuff. --- Amazon has a lot to atone for. It has some abhorrent practices. But let's not pretend that Amazon is the only company around where line workers don't have time to take adequate bathroom breaks. Or that Amazon's drivers are the only last mile delivery drivers who have issues finding time/places to go to the restroom. Can Amazon do more? Yes. Should Amazon be a corporate leader? Yes. But this a larger problem than Amazon. This happens across industries with line workers and last mile delivery jobs.
- neolog 6y ago
  > But let's not pretend that Amazon is the only ... Nobody's saying that.
- paulryanrogers 6y ago
  > Can Amazon do more? Yes. Should Amazon be a corporate leader? Yes. But this a larger problem than Amazon. This happens across industries with line workers and last mile delivery jobs. Amazon is becoming one of the only employers for less skilled workers ... because of Amazon's ruthless pricing, co-mingling, white-labeling, outsourced externalities, and other strategies. This is why we have anti-trust. Whether others are also abusive or incentivize dehumanizing behavior is irrelevant.
_dgpf 6y ago
> You don’t really believe the peeing in bottles thing, do you? If that were true, nobody would work for us. Amazon is not okay with their employees pissing into bottles; they issuing the warning letter; yet some of them still do it. Not because they have to but just because they can. It's not uncommon among males when they're on a long drive to piss into bottles. When they get caught, of course they'd claim it was due to the deadline, not because they don't want to take few minutes for a detour.

nerdponx 6y ago

Ah, the old economics joke: > Two economists are walking down the street, when they pass buy a luxury car dealership. One economist says, "I really want that Ferrari!" The other economist replies, "Clearly you don't!" And the other one that isn't as relevant but is funny: > Two economists are walking down the street, when one of them sees something on the ground. She says, "hey, is that a $20 bill on the ground?" The other economist replies, "obviously not, otherwise someone would have picked it up already!"

WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
Never heard the first one, but it makes sense.
neartheplain 6y ago
Does the first joke refer to the fact that if they wanted the Ferrari they’d have bought it already, or that if they really wanted the Ferrari, they’d have chosen a more lucrative profession than economics?
- madaxe_again 6y ago
  The former - it’s a dig at “efficient markets”.
  - nerdponx 6y ago
    More specifically, the first one is a dig at anyone who tries to infer preferences from behavior, without considering or knowing the full set of alternatives available to the individual. In this case, even a well-paid tenured economist probably could not afford the Ferrari without making some significant sacrifices elsewhere. So it's not that they are choosing between "Ferrari" and "no Ferrari", it's that they are choosing between "Ferrari and I don't have any money and my wife leaves me" and "no Ferrari and I keep my retirement savings and my wife doesn't leave me." The relevance here is that, for some people, their best option might actually be "stay at horrible job at Amazon where I'm forced to piss in a bottle", not because they like pissing in bottles, but because the alternatives are actually worse. The only thing you can tell from a person's behavior is that, to that person at that particular time, whatever they did/chose seemed like the best option.

whoknew1122 6y ago

Disclaimer: Work at AWS now. Opinion my own, and I have both good and bad things about my employer. I also have extreme reservations about capitalism. 1.) This is all competent PR. PR is there to cast the employer in a good light, and bait-and-switch is a tactic used since before there was a formalized PR industry. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon PR was going to next say 'most of our drivers aren't Amazon employees. We can't control how subcontractors act.' Which is a technically true statement, but misses the point. 2.) The context of this article is recent comments from Amazon's social media team and a director. In an incredibly large organization like Amazon, a director (and members of the social media team) is going to be far removed from the realities of package deliverers. To give the director and social media team the benefit of the doubt, they could be speaking the truth as they believe it. Members of the social media team probably wouldn't work in a position wherein they're forced to urinate in bottles. The director probably isn't aware of the 'leaked document'--which was really just an email sent to an unknown audience. But they typically won't send those types of emails to directors, because they don't want directors to know that stuff. --- Amazon has a lot to atone for. It has some abhorrent practices. But let's not pretend that Amazon is the only company around where line workers don't have time to take adequate bathroom breaks. Or that Amazon's drivers are the only last mile delivery drivers who have issues finding time/places to go to the restroom. Can Amazon do more? Yes. Should Amazon be a corporate leader? Yes. But this a larger problem than Amazon. This happens across industries with line workers and last mile delivery jobs.

neolog 6y ago
> But let's not pretend that Amazon is the only ... Nobody's saying that.
paulryanrogers 6y ago
> Can Amazon do more? Yes. Should Amazon be a corporate leader? Yes. But this a larger problem than Amazon. This happens across industries with line workers and last mile delivery jobs. Amazon is becoming one of the only employers for less skilled workers ... because of Amazon's ruthless pricing, co-mingling, white-labeling, outsourced externalities, and other strategies. This is why we have anti-trust. Whether others are also abusive or incentivize dehumanizing behavior is irrelevant.

_dgpf 6y ago

> You don’t really believe the peeing in bottles thing, do you? If that were true, nobody would work for us. Amazon is not okay with their employees pissing into bottles; they issuing the warning letter; yet some of them still do it. Not because they have to but just because they can. It's not uncommon among males when they're on a long drive to piss into bottles. When they get caught, of course they'd claim it was due to the deadline, not because they don't want to take few minutes for a detour.