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What’s being done in Xinjiang is indisputably awful. It’s also clear that the Chinese response is heavily coordinated by the state for its own political benefit

What’s being done in Xinjiang is indisputably awful. It’s also clear that the Chinese response is heavily coordinated by the state for its own political benefit. On the other hand, I reckon the average Chinese person on the street hears about corporate boycotts like this and just thinks: you Westerners are a bloody bunch of hypocrites. This week the Georgia legislature disenfranchised innumerable black people and there were two mass shootings. In the past 12 months alone, hundreds of thousands of people have died in America alone in large part due to malignant political influence, and a sitting President incited a riot in the Capitol. You can see how the issue devolves into crass nationalism pretty quickly. Anyone with any sense has been warning about Western countries allowing or causing the erosion of their own soft power in recent decades, culminating most recently with the awful person that was Donald Trump. It’s well and truly coming home to roost now.

underseacables 6y ago
You had me until you got to Donald Trump. No president has been more critical of China and actually done more to confront China than Donald Trump.
- darkteflon 6y ago
  Donald Trump’s specific policy on China is a separate matter from the effect his conduct generally had on American soft power. I say this as a citizen of one of America’s closest allies.
teknologist 6y ago
Let's compare literal genocide and live organ harvesting with what happened to George Floyd and a riot in the Capitol building. Smart.
- darkteflon 6y ago
  No one’s comparing those things.
  - teknologist 6y ago
    In designating 'Westerners' as 'a bunch of bloody hypocrites' the boycotters, as you have described them, most certainly would be
    - darkteflon 6y ago
      It’s not about moral relativism or whataboutism. I’m saying the precipitous decline in American soft power opens the door for the weaponisation of events like this for the political benefit of the Chinese state.
      - teknologist 6y ago
        Well then I guess I'm saying that it's not so smart to believe it
        darkteflon 6y ago
        Right. You were just running your mouth.
baybal2 6y ago
> On the other hand, I reckon the average Chinese person on the street hears about corporate boycotts like this and just thinks: you Westerners are a bloody bunch of hypocrites. An average Chinese person on the street doesn't think, he is preoccupied with making a living, and has no time to watch nor the Radio Free Asia, nor People's Daily. And if given chance to immigrate, and money, most will not give a f__k what is to happen to China, or America tomorrow. Locals would agonize much less about the fate of their country than idle intellectuals in the West, as they are smart enough to see that they have zero stake in it. There is nothing in life an average Chinese gets from his country, and nor would he want to give anything back to it.
- oreally 6y ago
  That's quite some level of denigration and generalization on the average chinese person you've put out. Consider the fact that China raised millions out of poverty. Consider the fact that they're one of the few countries able to stand up to the US. Consider the fact China has the most opportunities out of the few chinese-majority countries in the world. It's a great deal for them.
  - baybal2 6y ago
    That's not denigration, that's reality. > Consider the fact that China raised millions out of poverty. Nobody raised anybody out of poverty. The only ones they have to thank for raising them out of poverty are themselves. It was that party in the first place which plunged China into the abyss. Telling that you can only have nice living because of the party is the true denigration. > That's quite some level of denigration and generalization on the average chinese person you've put out. An average Chinese person has more enough reasons to hate the country with passion that idle Western intellectuals. I myself know many people personally whose relative were killed by communists, and some even know where children of those murderers live today. Be grateful for that??? Hundred curses
    - oreally 6y ago
      > Nobody raised anybody out of poverty. The only ones they have to thank for raising them out of poverty are themselves. It was that party in the first place which plunged China into the abyss. Do you honestly think that in 1970s rural china without investments into infrastructure you'd still be able to pull yourself out of poverty? These things require huge organized effort. Not sure where you got the idea that the average chinese should be grateful to the party. I've said nothing about that, just pointing out the advantages of the average Chinese person.
throw0101a 6y ago
> […] thinks: you Westerners are a bloody bunch of hypocrites. This week the Georgia legislature disenfranchised innumerable black people and there were two mass shootings. I keep wondering why the response of hypocrisy seems to be the go-to one, when it doesn't answer anything: * https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
nova77hn 6y ago
“In America you’re free to criticise the American government. In China you’re also free to criticise the American government.” ;)
- darkteflon 6y ago
  Haha, no disagreement there. ;)
  - nova77hn 6y ago
    For this type of arguments see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes

underseacables 6y ago

You had me until you got to Donald Trump. No president has been more critical of China and actually done more to confront China than Donald Trump.

darkteflon 6y ago
Donald Trump’s specific policy on China is a separate matter from the effect his conduct generally had on American soft power. I say this as a citizen of one of America’s closest allies.

teknologist 6y ago

Let's compare literal genocide and live organ harvesting with what happened to George Floyd and a riot in the Capitol building. Smart.

darkteflon 6y ago
No one’s comparing those things.
- teknologist 6y ago
  In designating 'Westerners' as 'a bunch of bloody hypocrites' the boycotters, as you have described them, most certainly would be
  - darkteflon 6y ago
    It’s not about moral relativism or whataboutism. I’m saying the precipitous decline in American soft power opens the door for the weaponisation of events like this for the political benefit of the Chinese state.
    - teknologist 6y ago
      Well then I guess I'm saying that it's not so smart to believe it
      - darkteflon 6y ago
        Right. You were just running your mouth.

baybal2 6y ago

> On the other hand, I reckon the average Chinese person on the street hears about corporate boycotts like this and just thinks: you Westerners are a bloody bunch of hypocrites. An average Chinese person on the street doesn't think, he is preoccupied with making a living, and has no time to watch nor the Radio Free Asia, nor People's Daily. And if given chance to immigrate, and money, most will not give a f__k what is to happen to China, or America tomorrow. Locals would agonize much less about the fate of their country than idle intellectuals in the West, as they are smart enough to see that they have zero stake in it. There is nothing in life an average Chinese gets from his country, and nor would he want to give anything back to it.

oreally 6y ago
That's quite some level of denigration and generalization on the average chinese person you've put out. Consider the fact that China raised millions out of poverty. Consider the fact that they're one of the few countries able to stand up to the US. Consider the fact China has the most opportunities out of the few chinese-majority countries in the world. It's a great deal for them.
- baybal2 6y ago
  That's not denigration, that's reality. > Consider the fact that China raised millions out of poverty. Nobody raised anybody out of poverty. The only ones they have to thank for raising them out of poverty are themselves. It was that party in the first place which plunged China into the abyss. Telling that you can only have nice living because of the party is the true denigration. > That's quite some level of denigration and generalization on the average chinese person you've put out. An average Chinese person has more enough reasons to hate the country with passion that idle Western intellectuals. I myself know many people personally whose relative were killed by communists, and some even know where children of those murderers live today. Be grateful for that??? Hundred curses
  - oreally 6y ago
    > Nobody raised anybody out of poverty. The only ones they have to thank for raising them out of poverty are themselves. It was that party in the first place which plunged China into the abyss. Do you honestly think that in 1970s rural china without investments into infrastructure you'd still be able to pull yourself out of poverty? These things require huge organized effort. Not sure where you got the idea that the average chinese should be grateful to the party. I've said nothing about that, just pointing out the advantages of the average Chinese person.

throw0101a 6y ago

> […] thinks: you Westerners are a bloody bunch of hypocrites. This week the Georgia legislature disenfranchised innumerable black people and there were two mass shootings. I keep wondering why the response of hypocrisy seems to be the go-to one, when it doesn't answer anything: * https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

nova77hn 6y ago

“In America you’re free to criticise the American government. In China you’re also free to criticise the American government.” ;)

darkteflon 6y ago
Haha, no disagreement there. ;)
- nova77hn 6y ago
  For this type of arguments see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes