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Greece's government paid millions of euros to the mainstream media so that they allign with the government's narative on how the pandemic is being handled. They

by gtsop 6y ago

Greece's government paid millions of euros to the mainstream media so that they allign with the government's narative on how the pandemic is being handled. They also give out non-papers to prevent media from saying bad things about the president. The police recently heavily restricted the freedom of journalists covering demonstrations. Is it clear now? That's just the tip

nkozyra 6y ago
I think that's very different than what they're attempting to capture here. Bribery is a little different than coercion by force. Bribery is something even the freest of institute is susceptible. Edit: it very explicitly defines this in the article. Media's ability to provide unbiased journalism independent to the state is not a metric. Indeed in a relatively free US there is terrible journalism everywhere you look. It's just not under the thumb of the state.
- gtsop 6y ago
  I don't think your argument is very valid based on what they say their metrics are. Listing the relevant ones: Pluralism, Media independence, Legislative framework, Transparency. These are the metrics relevant to the examples I gave earlier. I don't think the score is fair. I did a bit of diging on their website and there is some coverage on many of the examples I listed, which surprises me. It may truly be a visualization issue
  - nkozyra 6y ago
    I think you're misinterpreting those metrics, though. This is entirely about the states ability to suppress freedom. Are there more examples you left out? Because freedom does not preclude the susceptibility to bribery.
    - bondarchuk 6y ago
      https://rsf.org/en/detailed-methodology https://rsf.org/en/detailed-methodology >The criteria evaluated in the questionnaire are pluralism, media independence, media environment and self-censorship, legislative framework, transparency, and the quality of the infrastructure that supports the production of news and information. Bribery clearly falls into "media independence", perhaps also "self-censorship" (censor yourself to get free money). Their description of media independence: >Measures the degree to which the media are able to function independently of sources of political, governmental, business and religious power and influence. Again I think bribery and other soft/financial coercion should clearly be included here.
      - nkozyra 6y ago
        When even the most free institutions could fall to bribery I really don't see how that could be a factor. Freedom does not preclude vulnerability to greed
        bondarchuk 6y ago
        Even if something is unavoidable, it can still be a barrier to freedom. Besides, I think there are lots of steps possible to limit bribery, from better living standards to closer scrutiny of money flows to the general culture of tacit acceptance, making it easier to report, etcetera. Also I don't see why bribery is different than e.g. violence or state persecution. "Even the freest institute is susceptible to state violence", you might say just as well.
        nkozyra 6y ago
        > Even if something is unavoidable, it can still be a barrier to freedom If it's equally possible in completely free and completely unfree scenarios how can you use it as a metric to show something is not free?
        bondarchuk 6y ago
        Sorry I really don't know what you're on about, I'm done with this conversation.
    - gtsop 6y ago
      Ok, let's not talk semantics then. Let's talk essence. If these metrics portray this country as a "good enough" place for journalism, then these metrics are of no value, because the reality is: mainstream journalism is broken to the point of causing harm to the citizens. Soft bribe, hard bribe, little corruption, much corruption... Does it matter? Not to me, the end result is bad. I don't care if journalists willingly play the government's game or not. Maybe I'm not the intended audience for this report > Are there more examples you left out? Because freedom does not preclude the susceptibility to bribery. Yes there are multiple reports of police preventing indepedent journalists from covering hot controversial topics. There are reports of that on the site itself
      - nkozyra 6y ago
        > If these metrics portray this country as a "good enough" place for journalism I think that's the issue: it's measuring a good enough place for journalistic freedom. That doesn't ensure the press will behave in an unbiased way.

by gtsop 6y ago

nkozyra 6y ago

I think that's very different than what they're attempting to capture here. Bribery is a little different than coercion by force. Bribery is something even the freest of institute is susceptible. Edit: it very explicitly defines this in the article. Media's ability to provide unbiased journalism independent to the state is not a metric. Indeed in a relatively free US there is terrible journalism everywhere you look. It's just not under the thumb of the state.

gtsop 6y ago
I don't think your argument is very valid based on what they say their metrics are. Listing the relevant ones: Pluralism, Media independence, Legislative framework, Transparency. These are the metrics relevant to the examples I gave earlier. I don't think the score is fair. I did a bit of diging on their website and there is some coverage on many of the examples I listed, which surprises me. It may truly be a visualization issue
- nkozyra 6y ago
  I think you're misinterpreting those metrics, though. This is entirely about the states ability to suppress freedom. Are there more examples you left out? Because freedom does not preclude the susceptibility to bribery.
  - bondarchuk 6y ago
    https://rsf.org/en/detailed-methodology https://rsf.org/en/detailed-methodology >The criteria evaluated in the questionnaire are pluralism, media independence, media environment and self-censorship, legislative framework, transparency, and the quality of the infrastructure that supports the production of news and information. Bribery clearly falls into "media independence", perhaps also "self-censorship" (censor yourself to get free money). Their description of media independence: >Measures the degree to which the media are able to function independently of sources of political, governmental, business and religious power and influence. Again I think bribery and other soft/financial coercion should clearly be included here.
    - nkozyra 6y ago
      When even the most free institutions could fall to bribery I really don't see how that could be a factor. Freedom does not preclude vulnerability to greed
      - bondarchuk 6y ago
        Even if something is unavoidable, it can still be a barrier to freedom. Besides, I think there are lots of steps possible to limit bribery, from better living standards to closer scrutiny of money flows to the general culture of tacit acceptance, making it easier to report, etcetera. Also I don't see why bribery is different than e.g. violence or state persecution. "Even the freest institute is susceptible to state violence", you might say just as well.
        nkozyra 6y ago
        > Even if something is unavoidable, it can still be a barrier to freedom If it's equally possible in completely free and completely unfree scenarios how can you use it as a metric to show something is not free?
        bondarchuk 6y ago
        Sorry I really don't know what you're on about, I'm done with this conversation.
  - gtsop 6y ago
    Ok, let's not talk semantics then. Let's talk essence. If these metrics portray this country as a "good enough" place for journalism, then these metrics are of no value, because the reality is: mainstream journalism is broken to the point of causing harm to the citizens. Soft bribe, hard bribe, little corruption, much corruption... Does it matter? Not to me, the end result is bad. I don't care if journalists willingly play the government's game or not. Maybe I'm not the intended audience for this report > Are there more examples you left out? Because freedom does not preclude the susceptibility to bribery. Yes there are multiple reports of police preventing indepedent journalists from covering hot controversial topics. There are reports of that on the site itself
    - nkozyra 6y ago
      > If these metrics portray this country as a "good enough" place for journalism I think that's the issue: it's measuring a good enough place for journalistic freedom. That doesn't ensure the press will behave in an unbiased way.