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Ha! What a scam. Greece in the blue zone? Oh boy, I really want to see the full dataset of this "report". The journalist scandals and corruption in mainstream m

by gtsop 6y ago

Ha! What a scam. Greece in the blue zone? Oh boy, I really want to see the full dataset of this "report". The journalist scandals and corruption in mainstream media in Greece has gone through the roof. If these "analysts" put it at the blue zone I can't imagine what's the situation at the yellow zones. Edit: I know it's teal, by saying blue I meant the lower-end zone, doesn't change my point

secfirstmd 6y ago
Well comparatively there are a lot of places in the world were journalists are murdered so I guess context matters.
- gtsop 6y ago
  I would agree with your point but there is a problem on the scale. The scale starts from 0 and goes to 100. It is thus imperative that when you see a country near the 0 zone you think "Ah! Things are good there!". So the visualization is missleading, that' why I said I want to see the dataset. I don't want to see it in relative score, but in absolute score. If every country on earth is on the red zone, then paint it all red.
nkozyra 6y ago
Well what does that have to do with journalistic freedom, which is what this list aims to measure? This is about how states treat the media, not how the media independently behaves.
- gtsop 6y ago
  Greece's government paid millions of euros to the mainstream media so that they allign with the government's narative on how the pandemic is being handled. They also give out non-papers to prevent media from saying bad things about the president. The police recently heavily restricted the freedom of journalists covering demonstrations. Is it clear now? That's just the tip
  - nkozyra 6y ago
    I think that's very different than what they're attempting to capture here. Bribery is a little different than coercion by force. Bribery is something even the freest of institute is susceptible. Edit: it very explicitly defines this in the article. Media's ability to provide unbiased journalism independent to the state is not a metric. Indeed in a relatively free US there is terrible journalism everywhere you look. It's just not under the thumb of the state.
    - gtsop 6y ago
      I don't think your argument is very valid based on what they say their metrics are. Listing the relevant ones: Pluralism, Media independence, Legislative framework, Transparency. These are the metrics relevant to the examples I gave earlier. I don't think the score is fair. I did a bit of diging on their website and there is some coverage on many of the examples I listed, which surprises me. It may truly be a visualization issue
      - nkozyra 6y ago
        I think you're misinterpreting those metrics, though. This is entirely about the states ability to suppress freedom. Are there more examples you left out? Because freedom does not preclude the susceptibility to bribery.
        bondarchuk 6y ago
        https://rsf.org/en/detailed-methodology https://rsf.org/en/detailed-methodology >The criteria evaluated in the questionnaire are pluralism, media independence, media environment and self-censorship, legislative framework, transparency, and the quality of the infrastructure that supports the production of news and information. Bribery clearly falls into "media independence", perhaps also "self-censorship" (censor yourself to get free money). Their description of media independence: >Measures the degree to which the media are able to function independently of sources of political, governmental, business and religious power and influence. Again I think bribery and other soft/financial coercion should clearly be included here.
- mustafa_pasi 6y ago
  If they are bought and paid for, then powerful entities don't need to suppress them through blackmail or violence. So without accounting for corrupt journalism the metric of journalistic freedom alone is misleading.
  - nkozyra 6y ago
    You're right but what you're actually describing is an indicator of freedom. If I can compell you with the stick i have no reason to offer you a carrot
pmontra 6y ago
Bribery is on the same axis as honesty, not freedom. It would be a metric in the World Press Honesty Index. There are countries where the government doesn't even have to bribe press to make journalists write and say what the regime wants.

by gtsop 6y ago

secfirstmd 6y ago

Well comparatively there are a lot of places in the world were journalists are murdered so I guess context matters.

gtsop 6y ago
I would agree with your point but there is a problem on the scale. The scale starts from 0 and goes to 100. It is thus imperative that when you see a country near the 0 zone you think "Ah! Things are good there!". So the visualization is missleading, that' why I said I want to see the dataset. I don't want to see it in relative score, but in absolute score. If every country on earth is on the red zone, then paint it all red.

nkozyra 6y ago

Well what does that have to do with journalistic freedom, which is what this list aims to measure? This is about how states treat the media, not how the media independently behaves.

gtsop 6y ago
Greece's government paid millions of euros to the mainstream media so that they allign with the government's narative on how the pandemic is being handled. They also give out non-papers to prevent media from saying bad things about the president. The police recently heavily restricted the freedom of journalists covering demonstrations. Is it clear now? That's just the tip
- nkozyra 6y ago
  I think that's very different than what they're attempting to capture here. Bribery is a little different than coercion by force. Bribery is something even the freest of institute is susceptible. Edit: it very explicitly defines this in the article. Media's ability to provide unbiased journalism independent to the state is not a metric. Indeed in a relatively free US there is terrible journalism everywhere you look. It's just not under the thumb of the state.
  - gtsop 6y ago
    I don't think your argument is very valid based on what they say their metrics are. Listing the relevant ones: Pluralism, Media independence, Legislative framework, Transparency. These are the metrics relevant to the examples I gave earlier. I don't think the score is fair. I did a bit of diging on their website and there is some coverage on many of the examples I listed, which surprises me. It may truly be a visualization issue
    - nkozyra 6y ago
      I think you're misinterpreting those metrics, though. This is entirely about the states ability to suppress freedom. Are there more examples you left out? Because freedom does not preclude the susceptibility to bribery.
      - bondarchuk 6y ago
        https://rsf.org/en/detailed-methodology https://rsf.org/en/detailed-methodology >The criteria evaluated in the questionnaire are pluralism, media independence, media environment and self-censorship, legislative framework, transparency, and the quality of the infrastructure that supports the production of news and information. Bribery clearly falls into "media independence", perhaps also "self-censorship" (censor yourself to get free money). Their description of media independence: >Measures the degree to which the media are able to function independently of sources of political, governmental, business and religious power and influence. Again I think bribery and other soft/financial coercion should clearly be included here.
mustafa_pasi 6y ago
If they are bought and paid for, then powerful entities don't need to suppress them through blackmail or violence. So without accounting for corrupt journalism the metric of journalistic freedom alone is misleading.
- nkozyra 6y ago
  You're right but what you're actually describing is an indicator of freedom. If I can compell you with the stick i have no reason to offer you a carrot

pmontra 6y ago

Bribery is on the same axis as honesty, not freedom. It would be a metric in the World Press Honesty Index. There are countries where the government doesn't even have to bribe press to make journalists write and say what the regime wants.