5 ms·

> 4. The requirements are often flat out wrong. Isn't this basically a given? I find it hard to imagine that any organization could come up with good, complete

> 4. The requirements are often flat out wrong. Isn't this basically a given? I find it hard to imagine that any organization could come up with good, complete requirements before they've had any software written.

jussij 6y ago
Which is why most governments struggle with big IT projects. Governments by their nature tend to approach everything from a legal perspective. This then means the requirements of these big IT project end up being a mass of legal documents which try to describe what is being delivered by whom. Then when the whole thing falls apart it ends up in the courts and the court then decides who promised what based on those original contract documents.
- jordanbeiber 6y ago
  Everyone struggles with big IT projects. It’s also why Gene Kim & co wrote “The Phoenix Project” [1]. Everyone involved in software-building, non-tech industry should read it. In the end it’s just lean turned agile software dev. Reduce waste. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Phoenix-Project-DevOps-Helping-Business/dp/0988262592 https://www.amazon.com/Phoenix-Project-DevOps-Helping-Busine...
- 6pac3rings 6y ago
  Take a triple bottom line solution to the problem. Take a look at how kmalloc_obj is going in DragonFly BSD. Government IT challenges three technical team leads to get to solution like kmalloc_obj. Performance pays for 1st prize and the rest get less money. Cut the time horizon from start to finish for the piece work to 18-months. Spread the risk of total failure to zero.
- lostlogin 6y ago
  I was in a pub with a relative, and we got chatting to another random patron. The relative was asked about his CS job, and at some point details were being discussed. The relative said something like “we have made what was asked for but because we have run out of time, that’s what the customer is getting. We know what they actually want and need, but that’s not in the contract”. The person we were talking to was the customer.
  - Hallucinaut 6y ago
    Sounds like a good way to get sued for breach of confidentiality clauses
    - pjc50 6y ago
      People talk about disastrous contracts in the pub all the time. Actually getting sued is very rare.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  > Then when the whole thing falls apart it ends up in the courts and the court then decides who promised what based on those original contract documents. Something government contractors learn to be good at is following a spec. These lawsuits often end-up costing the taxpayer a fortune for the government to be told that everything was delivered according to their spec. The consulting company will then recoup it's losses from the lawsuit using their hourly billing clause where it stipulates that they can modify the software for X$/hour.
Rule35 6y ago
Right. But the client should never come up with the detailed spec. If they know what needs to be done it'd literally be faster for them to code it themselves. They should never produce more than a page or two of specs, outside of the central task itself, because most everything will change when under production anyways. A project like this is big enough that apps became a thing, and fundamentally changed twice, in the lead-up to the actual work. And all the little things they could control are just bikeshedding, best done by an impartial designer or by A/B tests.
- WesolyKubeczek 6y ago
  Yes, but your way would likely strip a friendly consultancy off a contract for a couple million of your favorite currency to produce said specifications.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  > If they know what needs to be done it'd literally be faster for them to code it themselves. They would need to hire software engineers and, quite frankly, most municipal governments aren't capable of adequately compensating these positions.
  - Rule35 6y ago
    Right, so they also don't have the capability of writing the spec. Knowing that they should just hand it all off.
    - 908B64B197 6y ago
      That would be even worse! Can you imagine the headlines where it's a private company that tells the government what they need to buy AND sells it? Horrible conflict of interest. The best solution would be for government IT to simply be competitive with the private sector for talent acquisition. That would probably mean that most senior software engineers will end-up being above the mayor's paygrade however.
      - 6y ago

jussij 6y ago

Which is why most governments struggle with big IT projects. Governments by their nature tend to approach everything from a legal perspective. This then means the requirements of these big IT project end up being a mass of legal documents which try to describe what is being delivered by whom. Then when the whole thing falls apart it ends up in the courts and the court then decides who promised what based on those original contract documents.

jordanbeiber 6y ago
Everyone struggles with big IT projects. It’s also why Gene Kim & co wrote “The Phoenix Project” [1]. Everyone involved in software-building, non-tech industry should read it. In the end it’s just lean turned agile software dev. Reduce waste. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Phoenix-Project-DevOps-Helping-Business/dp/0988262592 https://www.amazon.com/Phoenix-Project-DevOps-Helping-Busine...
6pac3rings 6y ago
Take a triple bottom line solution to the problem. Take a look at how kmalloc_obj is going in DragonFly BSD. Government IT challenges three technical team leads to get to solution like kmalloc_obj. Performance pays for 1st prize and the rest get less money. Cut the time horizon from start to finish for the piece work to 18-months. Spread the risk of total failure to zero.
lostlogin 6y ago
I was in a pub with a relative, and we got chatting to another random patron. The relative was asked about his CS job, and at some point details were being discussed. The relative said something like “we have made what was asked for but because we have run out of time, that’s what the customer is getting. We know what they actually want and need, but that’s not in the contract”. The person we were talking to was the customer.
- Hallucinaut 6y ago
  Sounds like a good way to get sued for breach of confidentiality clauses
  - pjc50 6y ago
    People talk about disastrous contracts in the pub all the time. Actually getting sued is very rare.
908B64B197 6y ago
> Then when the whole thing falls apart it ends up in the courts and the court then decides who promised what based on those original contract documents. Something government contractors learn to be good at is following a spec. These lawsuits often end-up costing the taxpayer a fortune for the government to be told that everything was delivered according to their spec. The consulting company will then recoup it's losses from the lawsuit using their hourly billing clause where it stipulates that they can modify the software for X$/hour.

Rule35 6y ago

Right. But the client should never come up with the detailed spec. If they know what needs to be done it'd literally be faster for them to code it themselves. They should never produce more than a page or two of specs, outside of the central task itself, because most everything will change when under production anyways. A project like this is big enough that apps became a thing, and fundamentally changed twice, in the lead-up to the actual work. And all the little things they could control are just bikeshedding, best done by an impartial designer or by A/B tests.

WesolyKubeczek 6y ago
Yes, but your way would likely strip a friendly consultancy off a contract for a couple million of your favorite currency to produce said specifications.
908B64B197 6y ago
> If they know what needs to be done it'd literally be faster for them to code it themselves. They would need to hire software engineers and, quite frankly, most municipal governments aren't capable of adequately compensating these positions.
- Rule35 6y ago
  Right, so they also don't have the capability of writing the spec. Knowing that they should just hand it all off.
  - 908B64B197 6y ago
    That would be even worse! Can you imagine the headlines where it's a private company that tells the government what they need to buy AND sells it? Horrible conflict of interest. The best solution would be for government IT to simply be competitive with the private sector for talent acquisition. That would probably mean that most senior software engineers will end-up being above the mayor's paygrade however.
    - 6y ago