5 ms·

>He wants to keep blogging about how harmless it is to have sex with teenage girls, he can keep doing that. He doesn't have to be in the board of the FSF to do

>He wants to keep blogging about how harmless it is to have sex with teenage girls, he can keep doing that. He doesn't have to be in the board of the FSF to do it. He hasn't done this since 2006 and has since published that he no longer stands behind the statement. Do we want to live in a world where a single incorrect thought made decades ago will forever tarnish your ability to participate in society?

varikin 6y ago
That's a pretty big statement to live down. edit: I seem to lost the ability to reply to your other statements. Is he actually trying to make himself a better person? Other people have listed where he has made several statements over the years since 2006 that show that he hasn't changed what he thinks. Just because he was a pioneer in programming and created the idea of free software does not give him free pass the rest of his life.
- foobar33333 6y ago
  HN and many online sites often go on about how unfair it is that previous criminals are locked out of work and have no path back to normal. RMS in this case is not even a criminal, simply someone who said he was skeptical of the effectiveness and need of the current laws 15 years ago. Does this not go against the desire to help people come back from previous mistakes?
  - hannasanarion 6y ago
    It is not fair that criminals find it hard to find work. Therefore, we should make El Chapo the next Attorney General. And OJ Simpson can be President while we're at it.
jordigh 6y ago
> He hasn't done this since 2006 https://web.archive.org/web/20161107050933/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2016-jul-oct.html#31_October_2016_%28Down's_syndrome%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20161107050933/https://www.stall... https://web.archive.org/web/20170202025227/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2016-nov-feb.html#14_December_2016_%28Campaign_of_bull-headed_prudery%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20170202025227/https://www.stall... https://web.archive.org/web/20170224174306/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2016-nov-feb.html#23_February_2017_%28A_violent_sex_offender%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20170224174306/https://www.stall... https://web.archive.org/web/20170612074722/http://stallman.org/archives/2017-mar-jun.html#26_May_2017_%28Prudish_ignorantism%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20170612074722/http://stallman.o... https://web.archive.org/web/20170616044924/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2017-mar-jun.html#13_June_2017_%28Sex_offender_registry%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20170616044924/https://www.stall... https://web.archive.org/web/20171020041022/http://stallman.org/archives/2017-jul-oct.html#10_October_2017_%28Laws_against_having_sex_with_an_animal%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20171020041022/http://stallman.o... https://web.archive.org/web/20180131020215/https://stallman.org/archives/2017-jul-oct.html#29_October_2017_%28Pestering_women%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20180131020215/https://stallman.... https://web.archive.org/web/20180104112431/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2017-nov-feb.html#27_November_2017_%28Roy_Moore's_relationships%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20180104112431/https://www.stall... https://web.archive.org/web/20180509120046/https://stallman.org/archives/2018-mar-jun.html#30_April_2018_%28UN_peacekeepers_in_South_Sudan%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20180509120046/https://stallman.... https://web.archive.org/web/20180911075211/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2018-jul-oct.html#17_July_2018_%28The_bullshitter's_flirting%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20180911075211/https://www.stall... https://web.archive.org/web/20180911075211/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2018-jul-oct.html#21_August_2018_%28Age_and_attraction%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20180911075211/https://www.stall... https://web.archive.org/web/20180924231708/https://stallman.org/archives/2018-jul-oct.html#23_September_2018_%28Cody_Wilson%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20180924231708/https://stallman.... https://web.archive.org/web/20180919100154/https://stallman.org/antiglossary.html#assult https://web.archive.org/web/20180919100154/https://stallman.... https://web.archive.org/web/20181113161736/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2018-sep-dec.html#6_November_2018_%28Sex_according_to_porn%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20181113161736/https://www.stall... https://web.archive.org/web/20190325024048/https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jan-apr.html#14_February_2019_%28Respecting_peoples_right_to_say_no%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20190325024048/https://stallman.... https://www.stallman.org/archives/2019-may-aug.html#11_June_2019_%28Stretching_meaning_of_terms%29 https://www.stallman.org/archives/2019-may-aug.html#11_June_... https://web.archive.org/web/20190801201704/https://stallman.org/archives/2019-may-aug.html#12_June_2019_%28Declining_sex_rates%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20190801201704/https://stallman.... https://web.archive.org/web/20190801201704/https://stallman.org/archives/2019-may-aug.html#30_July_2019_%28Al_Franken%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20190801201704/https://stallman.... https://web.archive.org/web/20190903050208/https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#27_August_2019_%28Me-too_frenzy%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20190903050208/https://stallman.... https://web.archive.org/web/20191011023557/https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#21_September_2019_%28Sex_workers%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20191011023557/https://stallman.... https://web.archive.org/web/20180924231708/https://stallman.org/archives/2018-jul-oct.html#23_September_2018_%28Cody_Wilson%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20180924231708/https://stallman.... > has since published that he no longer stands behind the statement This is true, but he's got plenty of other statements he still stands behind. I'm not sure he's said anything about how we shouldn't have sex with animals either.
- theteapot 6y ago
  They guy makes 10s of comments a day on a wide range of new articles and then publishes them publicly. Trawling over the thousands of them and presenting the the worst of them with no context what so ever, feels kind of seedy and pathetic to me.
  - jordigh 6y ago
    Here is the context I got these links from, but I have noticed that if I present the context, people don't see the links. http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2019/10/15/fsf-rms.html http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2019/10/15/fsf-rms.html
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- dTal 6y ago
  I want to be clear - is the problem that he has any public opinions outside the realm of free software, or that they are unpopular opinions? Because it seems to me that voicing unpopular opinions is basically what Stallman has always done, and it seems... I don't know, "capricious"? to laud him for this when we agree and condemn him when we disagree - and not just condemn as "wrong", but as badly behaved and unworthy of being a public figure. Stallman hasn't changed, only society's tolerance for views outside the mainstream - which seems like the wrong direction to me. I say this as someone with some sympathy for at least some of the things he has said in your copious list; my reluctance to specify which things indicates a problem with public discourse today, I feel. (Although even if I did not feel uncomfortable, I also would not want to sidetrack this thread into a political debate)
  - AstralStorm 6y ago
    They're not even unpopular (seeing as they match some of right wing), just dangerous and likely stated in irresponsible ways.
outworlder 6y ago
> a single incorrect thought Emphasis on "single". If this was true I would agree with you. He has since apologized for that. However, it was not only one stance and that's what prompted his "resignation" He was trying to split hairs in what constitutes assault just because he wanted to defend a colleague. https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20870050/richard-stallman-resigns-mit-free-software-foundation-epstein https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20870050/richard-stallman...
woodruffw 6y ago
I think the person you're responding to is referring to RMS's comments in 2019, not 2006[1]. [1]: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/09/richard-stallman-leaves-mit-after-controversial-remarks-on-rape/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/09/richard-stallman...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jordigh 6y ago
  The Epstein thing is a relatively minor incident of Stallman just being really stupid about what hill to die on and when. In the most charitable interpretation of it, he's defending Minsky as an ingenue who couldn't possibly have known that it is wrong to have underage women pimped at you just because they might be willingly pimped. Most reasonable people would recognise that making this defense, as a public figure who is supposed to be representing an entirely different political movement, is extremely bad PR for your other movement. It's a bad way to be a leader, to be sort of by proxy kind of defending Minsky's associations to Epstein. It leads to bad press, which it did, and it weakens support for your other, actual cause of software freedom.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
quineoa 6y ago
https://www.vice.com/en/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-scientist-richard-stallman-described-epstein-victims-as-entirely-willing https://www.vice.com/en/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-scient... [2019] Turns out people don't want to do business with you when you make comments like that. Doesn't matter how much cool software you wrote. Or how much you donate. After a certain point people would rather not be involved with your behavior if it doesn't align. Fortunately in this specific instance we see society taking SA and r**, as serious topics. Let's hope we have more of this. Maybe one day I'll finally meet a female colleague in the tech industry who _doesn't_ have a harrassment story to share.
- leereeves 6y ago
  Stallman wrote "the most plausible scenario is she presented herself to [Minsky] as entirely willing." That's very different from saying she was entirely willing. Taking words out of context to change what someone said is bad, right? Perhaps you should be outraged at Vice.
- alfiedotwtf 6y ago
  > Turns out people don't want to do business with you when you make comments like that, unless it’s the music industry FIFY I find it weird that Michael Jackson is on the radio so often and Chris Brown is still releasing new music and selling out, yet if they were behind a keyboard rather than microphone, they would have been cancelled long ago
hui-zheng 6y ago
> Do we want to live in a world where a single incorrect thought made decades ago will forever tarnish your ability to participate in society? It seems Some of us do want to live in that world. For those who are fascinated about that, please google Culture Revolution in China from 1966 until 1976. You could learn so much about how to destroy those who had made a mistake in their lives (BTW, don't worry, if they don't have made any mistake yet, you could found some or make up some for them), and also along the way, destroy yourself.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> He hasn't done this since 2006 He's done it at least as recently as 2012 (and I think he did it later than that in a side comment reacting to a political issue that some adovocates on one side had equated with pedophilia to underline how bad it was, but I can't find the quote at the moment), and didn't recant on the issue until 2019, during the furor that led to him leaving his FSF role.
- pseudalopex 6y ago
  He defended adults having sex with children as recently as 2013.[1] And fixed a link in an older comment in 2018 without saying his opinion changed.[2] [1] https://stallman.org/archives/2012-nov-feb.html#04_January_2013_(Pedophilia) https://stallman.org/archives/2012-nov-feb.html#04_January_2... [2] https://www.stallman.org/archives/2006-may-aug.html#05%20June%202006%20%28Dutch%20paedophiles%20form%20political%20party%29 https://www.stallman.org/archives/2006-may-aug.html#05%20Jun...

varikin 6y ago

That's a pretty big statement to live down. edit: I seem to lost the ability to reply to your other statements. Is he actually trying to make himself a better person? Other people have listed where he has made several statements over the years since 2006 that show that he hasn't changed what he thinks. Just because he was a pioneer in programming and created the idea of free software does not give him free pass the rest of his life.

foobar33333 6y ago
HN and many online sites often go on about how unfair it is that previous criminals are locked out of work and have no path back to normal. RMS in this case is not even a criminal, simply someone who said he was skeptical of the effectiveness and need of the current laws 15 years ago. Does this not go against the desire to help people come back from previous mistakes?
- hannasanarion 6y ago
  It is not fair that criminals find it hard to find work. Therefore, we should make El Chapo the next Attorney General. And OJ Simpson can be President while we're at it.

jordigh 6y ago

> He hasn't done this since 2006 https://web.archive.org/web/20161107050933/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2016-jul-oct.html#31_October_2016_%28Down's_syndrome%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20161107050933/https://www.stall... https://web.archive.org/web/20170202025227/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2016-nov-feb.html#14_December_2016_%28Campaign_of_bull-headed_prudery%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20170202025227/https://www.stall... https://web.archive.org/web/20170224174306/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2016-nov-feb.html#23_February_2017_%28A_violent_sex_offender%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20170224174306/https://www.stall... https://web.archive.org/web/20170612074722/http://stallman.org/archives/2017-mar-jun.html#26_May_2017_%28Prudish_ignorantism%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20170612074722/http://stallman.o... https://web.archive.org/web/20170616044924/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2017-mar-jun.html#13_June_2017_%28Sex_offender_registry%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20170616044924/https://www.stall... https://web.archive.org/web/20171020041022/http://stallman.org/archives/2017-jul-oct.html#10_October_2017_%28Laws_against_having_sex_with_an_animal%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20171020041022/http://stallman.o... https://web.archive.org/web/20180131020215/https://stallman.org/archives/2017-jul-oct.html#29_October_2017_%28Pestering_women%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20180131020215/https://stallman.... https://web.archive.org/web/20180104112431/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2017-nov-feb.html#27_November_2017_%28Roy_Moore's_relationships%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20180104112431/https://www.stall... https://web.archive.org/web/20180509120046/https://stallman.org/archives/2018-mar-jun.html#30_April_2018_%28UN_peacekeepers_in_South_Sudan%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20180509120046/https://stallman.... https://web.archive.org/web/20180911075211/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2018-jul-oct.html#17_July_2018_%28The_bullshitter's_flirting%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20180911075211/https://www.stall... https://web.archive.org/web/20180911075211/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2018-jul-oct.html#21_August_2018_%28Age_and_attraction%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20180911075211/https://www.stall... https://web.archive.org/web/20180924231708/https://stallman.org/archives/2018-jul-oct.html#23_September_2018_%28Cody_Wilson%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20180924231708/https://stallman.... https://web.archive.org/web/20180919100154/https://stallman.org/antiglossary.html#assult https://web.archive.org/web/20180919100154/https://stallman.... https://web.archive.org/web/20181113161736/https://www.stallman.org/archives/2018-sep-dec.html#6_November_2018_%28Sex_according_to_porn%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20181113161736/https://www.stall... https://web.archive.org/web/20190325024048/https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jan-apr.html#14_February_2019_%28Respecting_peoples_right_to_say_no%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20190325024048/https://stallman.... https://www.stallman.org/archives/2019-may-aug.html#11_June_2019_%28Stretching_meaning_of_terms%29 https://www.stallman.org/archives/2019-may-aug.html#11_June_... https://web.archive.org/web/20190801201704/https://stallman.org/archives/2019-may-aug.html#12_June_2019_%28Declining_sex_rates%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20190801201704/https://stallman.... https://web.archive.org/web/20190801201704/https://stallman.org/archives/2019-may-aug.html#30_July_2019_%28Al_Franken%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20190801201704/https://stallman.... https://web.archive.org/web/20190903050208/https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#27_August_2019_%28Me-too_frenzy%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20190903050208/https://stallman.... https://web.archive.org/web/20191011023557/https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#21_September_2019_%28Sex_workers%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20191011023557/https://stallman.... https://web.archive.org/web/20180924231708/https://stallman.org/archives/2018-jul-oct.html#23_September_2018_%28Cody_Wilson%29 https://web.archive.org/web/20180924231708/https://stallman.... > has since published that he no longer stands behind the statement This is true, but he's got plenty of other statements he still stands behind. I'm not sure he's said anything about how we shouldn't have sex with animals either.

theteapot 6y ago
They guy makes 10s of comments a day on a wide range of new articles and then publishes them publicly. Trawling over the thousands of them and presenting the the worst of them with no context what so ever, feels kind of seedy and pathetic to me.
- jordigh 6y ago
  Here is the context I got these links from, but I have noticed that if I present the context, people don't see the links. http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2019/10/15/fsf-rms.html http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2019/10/15/fsf-rms.html
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
dTal 6y ago
I want to be clear - is the problem that he has any public opinions outside the realm of free software, or that they are unpopular opinions? Because it seems to me that voicing unpopular opinions is basically what Stallman has always done, and it seems... I don't know, "capricious"? to laud him for this when we agree and condemn him when we disagree - and not just condemn as "wrong", but as badly behaved and unworthy of being a public figure. Stallman hasn't changed, only society's tolerance for views outside the mainstream - which seems like the wrong direction to me. I say this as someone with some sympathy for at least some of the things he has said in your copious list; my reluctance to specify which things indicates a problem with public discourse today, I feel. (Although even if I did not feel uncomfortable, I also would not want to sidetrack this thread into a political debate)
- AstralStorm 6y ago
  They're not even unpopular (seeing as they match some of right wing), just dangerous and likely stated in irresponsible ways.

outworlder 6y ago

> a single incorrect thought Emphasis on "single". If this was true I would agree with you. He has since apologized for that. However, it was not only one stance and that's what prompted his "resignation" He was trying to split hairs in what constitutes assault just because he wanted to defend a colleague. https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20870050/richard-stallman-resigns-mit-free-software-foundation-epstein https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20870050/richard-stallman...

woodruffw 6y ago

I think the person you're responding to is referring to RMS's comments in 2019, not 2006[1]. [1]: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/09/richard-stallman-leaves-mit-after-controversial-remarks-on-rape/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/09/richard-stallman...

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jordigh 6y ago
The Epstein thing is a relatively minor incident of Stallman just being really stupid about what hill to die on and when. In the most charitable interpretation of it, he's defending Minsky as an ingenue who couldn't possibly have known that it is wrong to have underage women pimped at you just because they might be willingly pimped. Most reasonable people would recognise that making this defense, as a public figure who is supposed to be representing an entirely different political movement, is extremely bad PR for your other movement. It's a bad way to be a leader, to be sort of by proxy kind of defending Minsky's associations to Epstein. It leads to bad press, which it did, and it weakens support for your other, actual cause of software freedom.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

quineoa 6y ago

https://www.vice.com/en/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-scientist-richard-stallman-described-epstein-victims-as-entirely-willing https://www.vice.com/en/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-scient... [2019] Turns out people don't want to do business with you when you make comments like that. Doesn't matter how much cool software you wrote. Or how much you donate. After a certain point people would rather not be involved with your behavior if it doesn't align. Fortunately in this specific instance we see society taking SA and r**, as serious topics. Let's hope we have more of this. Maybe one day I'll finally meet a female colleague in the tech industry who _doesn't_ have a harrassment story to share.

leereeves 6y ago
Stallman wrote "the most plausible scenario is she presented herself to [Minsky] as entirely willing." That's very different from saying she was entirely willing. Taking words out of context to change what someone said is bad, right? Perhaps you should be outraged at Vice.
alfiedotwtf 6y ago
> Turns out people don't want to do business with you when you make comments like that, unless it’s the music industry FIFY I find it weird that Michael Jackson is on the radio so often and Chris Brown is still releasing new music and selling out, yet if they were behind a keyboard rather than microphone, they would have been cancelled long ago

hui-zheng 6y ago

> Do we want to live in a world where a single incorrect thought made decades ago will forever tarnish your ability to participate in society? It seems Some of us do want to live in that world. For those who are fascinated about that, please google Culture Revolution in China from 1966 until 1976. You could learn so much about how to destroy those who had made a mistake in their lives (BTW, don't worry, if they don't have made any mistake yet, you could found some or make up some for them), and also along the way, destroy yourself.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> He hasn't done this since 2006 He's done it at least as recently as 2012 (and I think he did it later than that in a side comment reacting to a political issue that some adovocates on one side had equated with pedophilia to underline how bad it was, but I can't find the quote at the moment), and didn't recant on the issue until 2019, during the furor that led to him leaving his FSF role.

pseudalopex 6y ago
He defended adults having sex with children as recently as 2013.[1] And fixed a link in an older comment in 2018 without saying his opinion changed.[2] [1] https://stallman.org/archives/2012-nov-feb.html#04_January_2013_(Pedophilia) https://stallman.org/archives/2012-nov-feb.html#04_January_2... [2] https://www.stallman.org/archives/2006-may-aug.html#05%20June%202006%20%28Dutch%20paedophiles%20form%20political%20party%29 https://www.stallman.org/archives/2006-may-aug.html#05%20Jun...