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Google has been promising to 'solve' fragmentation and long-term support for almost a decade, and it doesn't seem like there is any real solution. If you inter

Google has been promising to 'solve' fragmentation and long-term support for almost a decade, and it doesn't seem like there is any real solution. If you interested in long-term updates, the answer is simple: buy an iPhone.

swiley 6y ago
The answer is a monolithic GPL kernel that forces manufactures to publish driver source code but they don't want to admit it.
- someperson 6y ago
  Or a Windows-style stable ABI with drivers remaining closed-source. That's what Google are doing with their new Fuchsia OS and Zircon kernel, which is expected to replace the GPL-licensed Linux kernel on Android and ChromeOS devices. Basically their moving away from the copyleft Linux kernel. Given Google's awful track record with Android and security updates, and their lack of ability to force companies like Qualcomm to provide longer support windows, I'm not sure their new strategy will be successful. Inevitably they'll be severe vulnerabilities found in the drivers including eg, Cellular radio / baseband drivers, Bluetooth driver, Wifi driver, and the vulnerabilities will never get patched. Hopefully Google's capability-based microkernel approach with Zircon will stop this ever happening. But again, given Google's atrocious track record with Android and security I highly doubt it. Even Windows doesn't support eg, i586 and i686 CPU architectures yet the Linux kernel does, so it seems like copyleft drivers are the only way to get security updates decades later.
  - someperson 6y ago
    > Hopefully Google's capability-based microkernel approach with Zircon will stop this ever happening. Just a correction, I meant "Hopefully Google's capability-based microkernel approach with Zircon will reduce the incidence and severity of vulnerabilities being exploited once they are inevitably discovered".
  - kevincox 6y ago
    This will allow the same blobs to keep working but won't get those blobs essential security updates. This isn't a technical problem, it is an economic (and social and legal) problem.
    - someperson 6y ago
      Well it is a technical problem: it can be solved by reverse engineering and re-implementing every driver. But yes, it's an economic problem because that's pretty expensive (but has been achieved before eg, nouveau driver) Google could easily use their monopolistic position to force all SoC vendors to provide greater software support. Heck, Google could even simply pay every SoC vendors to open source their drivers. It's unlikely to even cost that much. But today's Google is simply too incompetent to ever fix Android's security update problem. They've been making silly excuses for decades.
chickenbane 6y ago
We agree that Google hasn't completely solved the support problem, but it's not to say Treble hasn't improved things. Android Pie: https://www.androidauthority.com/project-treble-2019-1045370/ https://www.androidauthority.com/project-treble-2019-1045370... Android 11: https://9to5google.com/2020/12/16/android-updates-4-years/ https://9to5google.com/2020/12/16/android-updates-4-years/
- pjmlp 6y ago
  For the lucky ones buying flagship phones, it has hardly changed in the traditional models used by pre-paid customers.
lawl 6y ago
> If you interested in long-term updates, the answer is simple: buy an iPhone. I would, if apple wouldn't dictate what i can and cannot install on my phone. Is there a smartphone that's usable as a daily driver, lets me have root and provides long term updates?
- loa_in_ 6y ago
  > Is there a smartphone that's usable as a daily driver, lets me have root and provides long term updates? A touchscreen notebook with a GSM/LTE modem and a decent microphone running Linux is the closest you can get today as far as I know
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    Or, you know, almost any Android phone from a reputable brand like Oneplus for example.
    - hansel_der 6y ago
      cheeky comment considering the premise was long-term updates. while there are android phones that are supported by custom rom's up to ~5 years (exceptions even longer), the majority isn't. meanwhile a 5year old iphone se is seamlessly supported by the manufacturer and probably will be for a few years to come.
- fuzxi 6y ago
  Longterm official updates? Not that I've found. Your best bet is likely to buy a high-specced device that allows root + unlocking the bootloader and flashing a custom ROM. That's probably what I'm going to do (minus rooting), even though I'd greatly prefer manufacturer support.

swiley 6y ago

The answer is a monolithic GPL kernel that forces manufactures to publish driver source code but they don't want to admit it.

someperson 6y ago
Or a Windows-style stable ABI with drivers remaining closed-source. That's what Google are doing with their new Fuchsia OS and Zircon kernel, which is expected to replace the GPL-licensed Linux kernel on Android and ChromeOS devices. Basically their moving away from the copyleft Linux kernel. Given Google's awful track record with Android and security updates, and their lack of ability to force companies like Qualcomm to provide longer support windows, I'm not sure their new strategy will be successful. Inevitably they'll be severe vulnerabilities found in the drivers including eg, Cellular radio / baseband drivers, Bluetooth driver, Wifi driver, and the vulnerabilities will never get patched. Hopefully Google's capability-based microkernel approach with Zircon will stop this ever happening. But again, given Google's atrocious track record with Android and security I highly doubt it. Even Windows doesn't support eg, i586 and i686 CPU architectures yet the Linux kernel does, so it seems like copyleft drivers are the only way to get security updates decades later.
- someperson 6y ago
  > Hopefully Google's capability-based microkernel approach with Zircon will stop this ever happening. Just a correction, I meant "Hopefully Google's capability-based microkernel approach with Zircon will reduce the incidence and severity of vulnerabilities being exploited once they are inevitably discovered".
- kevincox 6y ago
  This will allow the same blobs to keep working but won't get those blobs essential security updates. This isn't a technical problem, it is an economic (and social and legal) problem.
  - someperson 6y ago
    Well it is a technical problem: it can be solved by reverse engineering and re-implementing every driver. But yes, it's an economic problem because that's pretty expensive (but has been achieved before eg, nouveau driver) Google could easily use their monopolistic position to force all SoC vendors to provide greater software support. Heck, Google could even simply pay every SoC vendors to open source their drivers. It's unlikely to even cost that much. But today's Google is simply too incompetent to ever fix Android's security update problem. They've been making silly excuses for decades.

chickenbane 6y ago

We agree that Google hasn't completely solved the support problem, but it's not to say Treble hasn't improved things. Android Pie: https://www.androidauthority.com/project-treble-2019-1045370/ https://www.androidauthority.com/project-treble-2019-1045370... Android 11: https://9to5google.com/2020/12/16/android-updates-4-years/ https://9to5google.com/2020/12/16/android-updates-4-years/

pjmlp 6y ago
For the lucky ones buying flagship phones, it has hardly changed in the traditional models used by pre-paid customers.

lawl 6y ago

> If you interested in long-term updates, the answer is simple: buy an iPhone. I would, if apple wouldn't dictate what i can and cannot install on my phone. Is there a smartphone that's usable as a daily driver, lets me have root and provides long term updates?

loa_in_ 6y ago
> Is there a smartphone that's usable as a daily driver, lets me have root and provides long term updates? A touchscreen notebook with a GSM/LTE modem and a decent microphone running Linux is the closest you can get today as far as I know
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  Or, you know, almost any Android phone from a reputable brand like Oneplus for example.
  - hansel_der 6y ago
    cheeky comment considering the premise was long-term updates. while there are android phones that are supported by custom rom's up to ~5 years (exceptions even longer), the majority isn't. meanwhile a 5year old iphone se is seamlessly supported by the manufacturer and probably will be for a few years to come.
fuzxi 6y ago
Longterm official updates? Not that I've found. Your best bet is likely to buy a high-specced device that allows root + unlocking the bootloader and flashing a custom ROM. That's probably what I'm going to do (minus rooting), even though I'd greatly prefer manufacturer support.