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Red Hat Suspends Funding to the Free Software Foundation
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- foobar33333 6y agoIt's really sad to see the witch hunting against RMS. A man who has committed no crime and has only shared a few honest and good faith opinions. Do we have to try to scrub people from existence when their opinions are not the same as yours?
- gameswithgo 6y agoSpeaking of good faith opinions, are you arguing in good faith that the witch hunt is just because his opinion is not the same? Can we refuse to do business with people when their opinions are legitimately abhorrent? Can we distinguish between differences of opinion and abhorrent opinions?
- foobar33333 6y agoAnyone can refuse to do business at any time. I'm suggesting that this move from redhat is a disappointment but not that it should be illegal.
- hui-zheng 6y agoAssuming this email is the root cause of everything. https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929/09132019142056-0001.pdf https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6405929/091320191... Could you explain what part of this email is legitimately abhorrent about?
- kelnos 6y ago> Can we refuse to do business with people when their opinions are legitimately abhorrent? Absolutely. Unless the refusal is about several legally-protected categories. > Can we distinguish between differences of opinion and abhorrent opinions? Some people can, some people can't.
- jordigh 6y agoNobody's saying we should scrub RMS from existence. Just don't secretly put him in charge of the FSF, without warning, and announce it during Libreplanet like it was his birthday party. Nobody from the FSF even knew this would happen except the board. It was a surprise to all of the FSF staff too. Already one board member has resigned over this. It's completely wrong to be running the FSF like your own private fan club instead of what it's supposed to be: a foundation for all of us, to defend software freedom for all of us. It should not be RMS headquarters. He wants to keep blogging about how harmless it is to have sex with teenage girls, he can keep doing that. He doesn't have to be in the board of the FSF to do it.
- foobar33333 6y ago>He wants to keep blogging about how harmless it is to have sex with teenage girls, he can keep doing that. He doesn't have to be in the board of the FSF to do it. He hasn't done this since 2006 and has since published that he no longer stands behind the statement. Do we want to live in a world where a single incorrect thought made decades ago will forever tarnish your ability to participate in society?
- varikin 6y agoThat's a pretty big statement to live down. edit: I seem to lost the ability to reply to your other statements. Is he actually trying to make himself a better person? Other people have listed where he has made several statements over the years since 2006 that show that he hasn't changed what he thinks. Just because he was a pioneer in programming and created the idea of free software does not give him free pass the rest of his life.
- foobar33333 6y agoHN and many online sites often go on about how unfair it is that previous criminals are locked out of work and have no path back to normal. RMS in this case is not even a criminal, simply someone who said he was skeptical of the effectiveness and need of the current laws 15 years ago. Does this not go against the desire to help people come back from previous mistakes?
- The_rationalist 6y agoI have not looked at the accusations claims in depth but anyway RMS has factually brought more utility to mankind (through network effects) than almost anyone else I can think of. Hence attacking him and the FSF seems quite hypocrite and ungrateful compared to what he gave to us. Critizing him is fine, witch hunting is not.
- mprev 6y agoMore than Fleming, Gutenberg, Bell, the Wright brothers, Einstein, Torvalds? No.
- The_rationalist 6y agoThis is not the point, my comment is not a contest for which human has given the biggest utilitarian impact, the point is that he is among those men.
- wrycoder 6y agoMore than Torvalds, yes.
- dale_glass 6y agoNot being a criminal is about the bare minimum requirement a decent person should pass. The trouble with Stallman is that as far as I can tell he's just barely tolerated by pretty much everybody who had to interact with him in person. Yes, he did a very good thing, and that contribution should be recognized. And he's got some great ideas that I can agree with on the subject of software. But unfortunately he's just not a good leader, whether in the area of the FSF's agenda or even software development and at this point is an active detriment to his own cause. Yes, I'll grant that he's been unfairly criticized for some things, but even ignoring all that doesn't make him a good choice for the position.
- nix23 6y ago>Not being a criminal is about the bare minimum requirement a decent person should pass. Funny it's the opposite with US-Presidents.
- dale_glass 6y agoWhy not link to Red Hat's page instead? It says just as much on this issue, and lacks the obnoxious "subscribe to our newsletter" box with a hard to find close button. https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/red-hat-statement-about-richard-stallmans-return-free-software-foundation-board https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/red-hat-statement-about-richa...
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- sdenton4 6y agoStrangely, every article on the community's rejection of this move by the FSF board has been flagged and killed, sometimes after many dozens of upvotes and comments. Free as in what now? on edit: Links. RMS Open Letter (121 pts, 131 comments, flagged) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26558348 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26558348 Red Hat statement (81 pts, 76 comments, flagged) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26585378 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26585378 /Reverse/ open letter in support of RMS (80 pts, 102 comments, flagged) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26585378 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26585378 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26565107 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26565107 OSI response (25 pts, 13 comments, flagged) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26559049 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26559049
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- chmod775 6y agoSo here's three things I believe very strongly: - Everyone should be allowed to find work, regardless of their personal beliefs and past conduct. - Red Hat is free to spend their money however they want. - One still should look down on Red Hat for their misguided decision. Edit: user geofft pointed out that > membership on the board of the FSF is not a compensated role. He wasn't hired for anything. Which changes my position to being pretty neutral on the matter. The FSF can do whatever they want and so can Red Hat, I suppose both know what's best for them better than I do.
- eat_veggies 6y agoEveryone should be allowed to find work, but that does not mean everyone is entitled to a highly visible leadership position of an organization that (presumably) represents a good chunk of the free software development community
- chmod775 6y ago> but that does not mean everyone is entitled to a highly visible leadership position You are correct - because nobody is entitled to any specific job. In a functioning society the most competent person that will perform the work for a reasonable compensation is hired. Presumably RMS fits the bill.
- Jon_Lowtek 6y agoPresumably? Why not check what the FSF actually is and does? (hint: it is not a representation of a community or chunk therof) People somehow assume that "president of the FSF" is a position of power and influence, which i presume to be a ridiculous claim.
- hannasanarion 6y ago> Everyone should be allowed to find work So was chairmanship of the free software foundation the only available job in the world? Stallman is already a 10-millionaire and bordering on 70 years old. He can retire and let somebody who isn't a pedophilia apologist run the FSF.
- detaro 6y agoearlier thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26596378 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26596378
- gigatexal 6y agoGood. The times, they have changed, and who you associate yourself with be it personally or publicly (in this case as a foundation but the same applies to for-profit companies) matters. Engineers want to work for organizations that are increasingly socially conscious and with people that foster safe, productive work environments. So, since association, with RMS is toxic (for things he's said and stances he's taken) it makes perfect sense to me for Red Hat to take this decision. It's their money, let them vote with their wallets. If you don't like it you can fund the FSF yourself and if enough do then Red Hat's decision won't make much of a difference.
- greatgib 6y agoI'm usually against the stupid cancelation culture, but, please, can we finally cancel Red Hat that is subtly doing so much harm to the open source community and software since a few years? They have already taken hostage a lot of things in the open source communities thanks to they huge financial power; and now they are also trying to take hostage the Free Software Foundation... I hope that the US tax authorities will go after them for any deduction they could have benefited following their donations, because of the rude difference between the gift of donation, and giving money to buy something. I'm not sure if I would personally support RMS or not, but it is the duty of the FSF board to take this decision without being blackmailed by some corporation. https://time.com/1861/charity-doing-good-is-bad/ https://time.com/1861/charity-doing-good-is-bad/
- dvfjsdhgfv 6y agoRed Hat is still funding the work of some developers on Free Software so "cancelling" them would have a negative net result.
- clhrust 6y agoThe funding works for projects like gcc or Linux, which still retain some of the original OSS principles. In other projects the presence of paid RedHat developers is a net negative due to their overbearing and controlling behavior. The latter would be somewhat excusable if their contributions were stellar, but they aren't.
- neilv 6y agoRMS has done some great things, and remains a tireless watchdog for certain principles-- buuuttt... in various ways, he's been alienating tons of people for decades, including some of those people I'd say were very aligned with FSF goals. That trail of alienation has long seemed counterproductive, and now has escalated. I'd like to think that some sufficient change of behaviors, and a sort of reconciliation with those hurt or alienated, could happen. FWIW, although RMS is incredibly tenacious when he thinks he's right, in the past I've seen him change his opinion when an argument manages to persuade him. Perhaps there are some people who are intellectually up to finding arguments that persuade RMS, and who are willing to reach out to him, and invest in difficult conversations. We should be able to have dialogue, to understand, to change, to reconcile. This could be a very positive next chapter in a noteworthy history, as well as a timely example (given some current divisions in the US) that noble ideals we held about dialogue can still sometimes work. Until that dream happens, at the moment, it seems like the current situation will cause further damage to libre software goals.
- swiley 6y agoIBM is removing funding from the FSF because RMS is involved? None of this should be surprising or cause any kind of alarm.
- beytzin 6y agoI do not see any issue with Red Hat or other companies cutting funding to FSF (for good or bad reasons). FSF and Stallman currently are just a source of bad press currently. I personally feel that Stallman would be considered toxic by today's standards of behaviour and is overall a liability to the Free Software movement (which itself is mostly irrelevant today for the average Software Developer or end user). Despite this I find myself extremely appalled by the overall discourse by those pushing for the FSF board's resignation. A common theme among the complaints seem to be that someone in a leadership position should be held to higher standards but I am seeing many among those who have signed the rms-open-letter along with other supporters who seem to be prominent in the Software community engaging in extremely toxic rhetoric (on Social media) towards any disagreement with their opinion such as calls for firing/not hiring those who may have different opinions, accusations of pedophilia, misogyny, transphobia and other prejudice. Supporters who say they just want Stallman out of leadership positions seem happy to like/amplify the above positions. I gave the linked snippets (and a bit more) on Stallman's websites a read. Stallman seems like a man completely out of touch with the state of things today especially those related to morality. But it seems to be a stretch to attribute deliberate malice.
- ThinkBeat 6y agoRedHat would not exist if it was not for RMS. If they really want to show they are serious why not remove all GNU software from their distro. An RMS free ethical Linux distro would that not say far more than cutting a bit of funding.
- srer 6y agoYears ago (linux-kernel 2.6 days) I found Red Hat was somewhat at odds with FSF values. Red Hat does abide by the letter by the GPL by releasing source as legally required, but in a form that's inconvenient to work with: https://lwn.net/Articles/430098/ https://lwn.net/Articles/430098/ Apparently you could access the individual patches through your Red Hat subscription, but the conditions of the subscription prohibited you from sharing them. https://lwn.net/Articles/430132/ https://lwn.net/Articles/430132/ (see pzb's comment). Red Hat/IBM is (presumably) doing what they believe will lead to continued commercial success in our current environment, I'm OK with that. But I don't really consider their condemnation of the FSF as anything of note beyond the loss of a donation.
- squarefoot 6y agohttps://www.fedscoop.com/events/redhatgov/ https://www.fedscoop.com/events/redhatgov/ Hey RedHat, did you take the chance of the above event with some people from the US Govt. in 2019 to say a word of two about that guy who has been heard and recorded saying about women "I can do anything to them", "I can grab them by the pussy", etc? Did you stop funding the US government as well? What a wonderful example of double standard.