4 ms·

They will still have all your messages, even the deleted ones.

rolph 6y ago
but they will have one less user, perhaps even a mass exodus if they decide to sell out. >> They will still have all your messages << this is why anything important to keep secret should be said in unclear terms so only those in on it will understand
- LinuxBender 6y ago
  Agreed, just making sure people know. It would be nice to see people self host chat so that their data is truly theirs. I tried in the past to move people to Mumble but it was a non starter. Maybe when M$ takes over Discord some small pockets of people will move. I predict all the "lewd" groups will be purged at some point.
  - rolph 6y ago
    >> It would be nice to see people self host chat so that their data is truly theirs<< it would also be nice to see a simple peer to peer chat server solution, something that looks and feels like ~messangerperhaps but runs more like an IRC. peer server chaining would be a good feature. [addndm] if each instance was capable of maintaining 2 peers then that would be a relay, or 3 peers then each one could function to route packets among peers
  - BoysenberryPi 6y ago
    Mumble is not an alternative to Discord and I don't know why people think it is.
    - LinuxBender 6y ago
      You are correct. It is just the closest thing I know of that can be self hosted. Jitsi is much more complicated. Definitely open to new ideas. FWIW the cpu load and voice quality are a bit better on Mumble, but the UI/UX is inferior for most people that are used to Discord and there is no screen sharing. Jitsi can do screen sharing but it is a much more involved setup that I don't foresee many people doing.
      - BoysenberryPi 6y ago
        Element is probably the closest thing to Discord for people who want to self-host. https://element.io/ https://element.io/
        LinuxBender 6y ago
        I am probably looking in the wrong place. The only self hosted option I see is to buy the Platinum plan. [1] Is there an unrestricted community edition on github? [1] - https://element.io/pricing https://element.io/pricing
        pixxel 6y ago
        https://element.io/open-source https://element.io/open-source
        LinuxBender 6y ago
        That lists a web UI. Is Element just a front-end to Matrix much like TheLounge [1] is a web front-end to IRC? If so, then you would first have to set up a self hosted Matrix server. Not a big deal really but getting people to set these up and plumb them together is probably just enough friction to prevent migration. [1] - https://github.com/thelounge/thelounge https://github.com/thelounge/thelounge
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  >> They will still have all your messages << > this is why anything important to keep secret should be said in unclear terms so only those in on it will understand Obscurity does very little if it actually matters (that is, you have an active adversary). Just like you shouldn't try to use innuendo and hinting to get at secret things when sitting in a public space, you shouldn't use it in text communications online. Even more so because those text communications can be held and reexamined later with new understanding. > but they will have one less user, perhaps even a mass exodus if they decide to sell out. The only way (and this isn't even guaranteed) for services like Discord to remain independent is if they're bringing in money from users or by selling access to users. How many users are paying regularly for access to parts of the service? How many would pay if they charged $5/year for basic access? An independent company can't afford (long term) to operate a free service of this scale without some form of selling out (advertisements/access to users) or selling services.
  - rolph 6y ago
    >>Just like you shouldn't try to use innuendo and hinting to get at secret things when sitting in a public space<< social ettiquette does this, yes its nice to be among other people not behaving like savages, but its often hinting such as "excuse me theres only 3 of those left, and theres 3 of us in line" the idea of crypto in some form isnt to keep it secret forever, just to keep it secret for long enough that the info is not germaine to adversarial action, so out of date that it cant be used expediently. That means dont assume your cipher is unbreakable, and dont TX things that stay hot for a long time, such as crimes. lewd groups were mentioned elsewhere and that has a big issue of facilitation of obvious crime and where to drop the line between consenting adults, and abuse.
JanSt 6y ago
Illegal under GDPR
- LinuxBender 6y ago
  Even if they "Anonymize" the data? I don't really know all the specifics of GDPR. Do they currently offer people in EU a way to download/review/delete (for real) all their data?
  - Rygian 6y ago
    It's really hard to figure if a text message contains PII or not, so they would have to anonymize everything, meaning transform the text message into random garbage. At that point the only thing that remains is the metadata about timestamps. I haven't checked whether they're complying or not, but as an European citizen it is my legal right to download all my personal data hosted by them, and to have them migrate it for me to one of their competitors.
  - kevan 6y ago
    I don't think you could anonymize chat messages with any level of confidence. Not an expert in this but my team generally has to treat free-text fields at the highest level of data classification because they could contain anything. The best you could do is try to mask obvious PII like phone number patterns but that's definitely not sufficient.
- underseacables 6y ago
  Doesn’t that only apply to Europe? Doesn’t seem to protect Americans at all.
- x0137294744532 6y ago
  It is sufficient to delete or anonymize identifying information. For instance, in the case of discord, it is possible to delete only the account information without deleting the chat themselves to comply with GDPR. You can still see the chat messages for the account id 123456789, but you shouldn't be able to associate this account id with an email or other personal information.

but they will have one less user, perhaps even a mass exodus if they decide to sell out. >> They will still have all your messages << this is why anything important to keep secret should be said in unclear terms so only those in on it will understand

LinuxBender 6y ago
Agreed, just making sure people know. It would be nice to see people self host chat so that their data is truly theirs. I tried in the past to move people to Mumble but it was a non starter. Maybe when M$ takes over Discord some small pockets of people will move. I predict all the "lewd" groups will be purged at some point.
- rolph 6y ago
  >> It would be nice to see people self host chat so that their data is truly theirs<< it would also be nice to see a simple peer to peer chat server solution, something that looks and feels like ~messangerperhaps but runs more like an IRC. peer server chaining would be a good feature. [addndm] if each instance was capable of maintaining 2 peers then that would be a relay, or 3 peers then each one could function to route packets among peers
- BoysenberryPi 6y ago
  Mumble is not an alternative to Discord and I don't know why people think it is.
  - LinuxBender 6y ago
    You are correct. It is just the closest thing I know of that can be self hosted. Jitsi is much more complicated. Definitely open to new ideas. FWIW the cpu load and voice quality are a bit better on Mumble, but the UI/UX is inferior for most people that are used to Discord and there is no screen sharing. Jitsi can do screen sharing but it is a much more involved setup that I don't foresee many people doing.
    - BoysenberryPi 6y ago
      Element is probably the closest thing to Discord for people who want to self-host. https://element.io/ https://element.io/
      - LinuxBender 6y ago
        I am probably looking in the wrong place. The only self hosted option I see is to buy the Platinum plan. [1] Is there an unrestricted community edition on github? [1] - https://element.io/pricing https://element.io/pricing
        pixxel 6y ago
        https://element.io/open-source https://element.io/open-source
        LinuxBender 6y ago
        That lists a web UI. Is Element just a front-end to Matrix much like TheLounge [1] is a web front-end to IRC? If so, then you would first have to set up a self hosted Matrix server. Not a big deal really but getting people to set these up and plumb them together is probably just enough friction to prevent migration. [1] - https://github.com/thelounge/thelounge https://github.com/thelounge/thelounge
Jtsummers 6y ago
>> They will still have all your messages << > this is why anything important to keep secret should be said in unclear terms so only those in on it will understand Obscurity does very little if it actually matters (that is, you have an active adversary). Just like you shouldn't try to use innuendo and hinting to get at secret things when sitting in a public space, you shouldn't use it in text communications online. Even more so because those text communications can be held and reexamined later with new understanding. > but they will have one less user, perhaps even a mass exodus if they decide to sell out. The only way (and this isn't even guaranteed) for services like Discord to remain independent is if they're bringing in money from users or by selling access to users. How many users are paying regularly for access to parts of the service? How many would pay if they charged $5/year for basic access? An independent company can't afford (long term) to operate a free service of this scale without some form of selling out (advertisements/access to users) or selling services.
- rolph 6y ago
  >>Just like you shouldn't try to use innuendo and hinting to get at secret things when sitting in a public space<< social ettiquette does this, yes its nice to be among other people not behaving like savages, but its often hinting such as "excuse me theres only 3 of those left, and theres 3 of us in line" the idea of crypto in some form isnt to keep it secret forever, just to keep it secret for long enough that the info is not germaine to adversarial action, so out of date that it cant be used expediently. That means dont assume your cipher is unbreakable, and dont TX things that stay hot for a long time, such as crimes. lewd groups were mentioned elsewhere and that has a big issue of facilitation of obvious crime and where to drop the line between consenting adults, and abuse.

JanSt 6y ago

Illegal under GDPR

LinuxBender 6y ago
Even if they "Anonymize" the data? I don't really know all the specifics of GDPR. Do they currently offer people in EU a way to download/review/delete (for real) all their data?
- Rygian 6y ago
  It's really hard to figure if a text message contains PII or not, so they would have to anonymize everything, meaning transform the text message into random garbage. At that point the only thing that remains is the metadata about timestamps. I haven't checked whether they're complying or not, but as an European citizen it is my legal right to download all my personal data hosted by them, and to have them migrate it for me to one of their competitors.
- kevan 6y ago
  I don't think you could anonymize chat messages with any level of confidence. Not an expert in this but my team generally has to treat free-text fields at the highest level of data classification because they could contain anything. The best you could do is try to mask obvious PII like phone number patterns but that's definitely not sufficient.
underseacables 6y ago
Doesn’t that only apply to Europe? Doesn’t seem to protect Americans at all.
x0137294744532 6y ago
It is sufficient to delete or anonymize identifying information. For instance, in the case of discord, it is possible to delete only the account information without deleting the chat themselves to comply with GDPR. You can still see the chat messages for the account id 123456789, but you shouldn't be able to associate this account id with an email or other personal information.