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I think in particular the Marines design was too much of a stretch from the start. VTOL just makes for a totally different aircraft. The differences between the

I think in particular the Marines design was too much of a stretch from the start. VTOL just makes for a totally different aircraft. The differences between the land and carrier versions are much smaller.

protomyth 6y ago
Yeah. The F-4 was fine for the Navy and Air Force, but the VTOL was a step too far.
- mgarfias 6y ago
  No, the f4 could do the job, but it wasn’t fine.
  - protomyth 6y ago
    Making more than 5,000 was probably good indicator of its value.
    - mgarfias 6y ago
      Read what Boyd had to say about it. It was of value to MD and GE, but a good fighter it wasn't. Nor was it a good bomb truck. It kinda did both, but not well. The DoD of course, followed it on with the F-111 (thanks McNamara!) that tried to do everything, but the only effective thing it really did was to cause the Soviets to build the MIG-23 and waste a bunch of cash on that.
    - ch_123 6y ago
      A lot of politics go into deciding what gets adopted, which leads to some very questionable aircraft getting adopted in large numbers. The F-104 was effectively forced onto a lot of European countries (particularly Germany) and mostly succeeded in killing lots of pilots.
      - GekkePrutser 6y ago
        Indeed, they called it the lawn dart :D It was used in the netherlands too. I don't know why they even wanted an interceptor. I suppose the soviets were still a thing. But a handful of F-104s wouldn't have stopped them. In the Netherlands there was also a huge corruption scandal involving the queen's husband who was paid to lobby on Lockheed's behalf.
MilStdJunkie 6y ago
The underlying concept of the program(1) was bad from the start, but to top it off, the thing can't fight: (TL;DR: the plane is in a catch-22 of not having enough range when it carries enough weapons and not having enough weapons when it has enough range - you can't load dirty and fly high in contested airspace, you'll get shot right down, and if you load clean you won't have enough range to engage safely or the numbers to do so effectively) * 1000 NM radius is not enough for SE Asia, at all, certainly not for defended airspace. Flying dirty (unstealthed), it flies LOLO for terrain masking, and now you're lucky to get 500 NM. * persnickety: pre-chilled fuel; exotic conditioned electricals; 30,000 dollar CPFH + regionally specific MDF for the active LO systems * Can't stealth mount BRU-61 * Can't mount AARGM-ER/AGM-88G, AIM-260 JATM, JAGM-F, SPEAR 3, JSM, APKWS, AGM-183 ARRW, AGM-158C/D LRASM/JASSM-XR, SACM/CUDA/PEREGRINE, Hammer/Hatchet at all * Can't supersonic launch missiles because no supercruise * So now subtract 30% from your missile range - a lot of power to make a shock cone that fast. * 8 seconds (A), 16 seconds (B) and 43 seconds (C) over KPP requirement for missile sprint, during the run up to IOT&E and OPEVAL. This is super duper bad. * 4 AMRAAMS internal, and you need 3 to guarantee a kill in ECM environment. Take more than 4 and you fly low, halving the combat radius if you're lucky. * APG-81, MADL, stealth coatings were pirated in the late aughts, compromised * Offtopic, but they're not helping with the "Show The Flag" forward presence parades up and down the "Black Ditch". Free handout to PRC tech exploit teams hanging out on the trawlers sniffing all the ELINT. * Etc etc etc etc this could go on for some time, like the logistics system that's already forcing ground crews to cannibalize the few jets they have. (1) VTOL? VTOL!? Have you not noticed that the most practical form of VTOL is a hundred knot airframe WITH A GIANT FRICKIN FAN ON TOP? Also, since when is your fighter aircraft the most expensive one? They're supposed to be disposable for gods sakes.

protomyth 6y ago

Yeah. The F-4 was fine for the Navy and Air Force, but the VTOL was a step too far.

mgarfias 6y ago
No, the f4 could do the job, but it wasn’t fine.
- protomyth 6y ago
  Making more than 5,000 was probably good indicator of its value.
  - mgarfias 6y ago
    Read what Boyd had to say about it. It was of value to MD and GE, but a good fighter it wasn't. Nor was it a good bomb truck. It kinda did both, but not well. The DoD of course, followed it on with the F-111 (thanks McNamara!) that tried to do everything, but the only effective thing it really did was to cause the Soviets to build the MIG-23 and waste a bunch of cash on that.
  - ch_123 6y ago
    A lot of politics go into deciding what gets adopted, which leads to some very questionable aircraft getting adopted in large numbers. The F-104 was effectively forced onto a lot of European countries (particularly Germany) and mostly succeeded in killing lots of pilots.
    - GekkePrutser 6y ago
      Indeed, they called it the lawn dart :D It was used in the netherlands too. I don't know why they even wanted an interceptor. I suppose the soviets were still a thing. But a handful of F-104s wouldn't have stopped them. In the Netherlands there was also a huge corruption scandal involving the queen's husband who was paid to lobby on Lockheed's behalf.

MilStdJunkie 6y ago

The underlying concept of the program(1) was bad from the start, but to top it off, the thing can't fight: (TL;DR: the plane is in a catch-22 of not having enough range when it carries enough weapons and not having enough weapons when it has enough range - you can't load dirty and fly high in contested airspace, you'll get shot right down, and if you load clean you won't have enough range to engage safely or the numbers to do so effectively) * 1000 NM radius is not enough for SE Asia, at all, certainly not for defended airspace. Flying dirty (unstealthed), it flies LOLO for terrain masking, and now you're lucky to get 500 NM. * persnickety: pre-chilled fuel; exotic conditioned electricals; 30,000 dollar CPFH + regionally specific MDF for the active LO systems * Can't stealth mount BRU-61 * Can't mount AARGM-ER/AGM-88G, AIM-260 JATM, JAGM-F, SPEAR 3, JSM, APKWS, AGM-183 ARRW, AGM-158C/D LRASM/JASSM-XR, SACM/CUDA/PEREGRINE, Hammer/Hatchet at all * Can't supersonic launch missiles because no supercruise * So now subtract 30% from your missile range - a lot of power to make a shock cone that fast. * 8 seconds (A), 16 seconds (B) and 43 seconds (C) over KPP requirement for missile sprint, during the run up to IOT&E and OPEVAL. This is super duper bad. * 4 AMRAAMS internal, and you need 3 to guarantee a kill in ECM environment. Take more than 4 and you fly low, halving the combat radius if you're lucky. * APG-81, MADL, stealth coatings were pirated in the late aughts, compromised * Offtopic, but they're not helping with the "Show The Flag" forward presence parades up and down the "Black Ditch". Free handout to PRC tech exploit teams hanging out on the trawlers sniffing all the ELINT. * Etc etc etc etc this could go on for some time, like the logistics system that's already forcing ground crews to cannibalize the few jets they have. (1) VTOL? VTOL!? Have you not noticed that the most practical form of VTOL is a hundred knot airframe WITH A GIANT FRICKIN FAN ON TOP? Also, since when is your fighter aircraft the most expensive one? They're supposed to be disposable for gods sakes.