4 ms·

Trust me, unhoused is also clunky. This is not how English works. Who thinks it does? If I'm shirtless, is that an innate property of me as an individual? S

Trust me, unhoused is also clunky. This is not how English works. Who thinks it does? If I'm shirtless, is that an innate property of me as an individual? Should I refer to myself as person without shirt just so people don't get confused?

ahelwer 6y ago
There is a distinction between home and house. Nomadland is a good film, if you're interested in seeing a form of houselessness one step above a tent on the side of the street. You'd be surprised how many of the "regular looking" people you interact with day-to-day are unhoused and live in their cars. Regarding your point about shirtlessness if there were an entire media cottage industry dedicated to depicting shirtless people as barely-sentient zombies spreading their infection to all you hold dear, then yeah maybe you'd want to reinforce that people should still view you as a full person. I think English is quite versatile and escapes your desire to circumscribe it.
- carmen_sandiego 6y ago
  'Shirtless' people are often described in the context of being some drunken yob or party goer. Or in some sexual direction. The connotation is typically negative. And yet it somehow doesn't destroy my ability to reason about how transitive the state is. The distinction isn't relevant to the discussion we're having, and that makes it feel inelegant and forced. Though I appreciate the patronizing recommendation of a multi-mainstream-award winning niche movie to help me understand it all.
  - ahelwer 6y ago
    I had assumed I wouldn't have to enumerate the many differences between not having a shirt and not being housed. I'm sure you're a capable person and can think about it yourself instead of continuing to carry this nonsensical comparison.
    - carmen_sandiego 6y ago
      Yes, the parallel is a rhetorical device. I don't think being shirtless is equivalent to being homeless. But I do think it's a difference of degree rather than type, and hence similar reasoning can be applied.
shalmanese 6y ago
We use the words "jobless" and "unemployed" in roughly the same grammatical formulation and to the same effect. Jobless focuses on the individual, unemployment focuses on structural factors.
- carmen_sandiego 6y ago
  The target of both 'jobless' and 'unemployed' is the individual, so I'm not sure how you arrive at your assertion that one doesn't focus on the individual.
- meepmorp 6y ago
  Joblessness is used as a synonym for unemployment in lots of news sources, as are adjectival forms like jobless claims, jobless rate, jobless benefits, etc. I understand the point you want to make, but you're not making it.
- umanwizard 6y ago
  > Jobless focuses on the individual, unemployment focuses on structural factors. Why?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
NamTaf 6y ago
I'd suggest that anyone who understands the stigma associated with certain terms understands that there's more nuance to this than you're suggesting. See also: the UK's use of 'sleeping rough'.
- carmen_sandiego 6y ago
  Sleeping rough is a term used by people straining to find the right PC phrase, not by the average person in conversation.
kgwgk 6y ago
Or person experiencing shirtlessness, maybe. But the all-encompassing, non-derogatory term would be "differently-clothed".

ahelwer 6y ago

There is a distinction between home and house. Nomadland is a good film, if you're interested in seeing a form of houselessness one step above a tent on the side of the street. You'd be surprised how many of the "regular looking" people you interact with day-to-day are unhoused and live in their cars. Regarding your point about shirtlessness if there were an entire media cottage industry dedicated to depicting shirtless people as barely-sentient zombies spreading their infection to all you hold dear, then yeah maybe you'd want to reinforce that people should still view you as a full person. I think English is quite versatile and escapes your desire to circumscribe it.

carmen_sandiego 6y ago
'Shirtless' people are often described in the context of being some drunken yob or party goer. Or in some sexual direction. The connotation is typically negative. And yet it somehow doesn't destroy my ability to reason about how transitive the state is. The distinction isn't relevant to the discussion we're having, and that makes it feel inelegant and forced. Though I appreciate the patronizing recommendation of a multi-mainstream-award winning niche movie to help me understand it all.
- ahelwer 6y ago
  I had assumed I wouldn't have to enumerate the many differences between not having a shirt and not being housed. I'm sure you're a capable person and can think about it yourself instead of continuing to carry this nonsensical comparison.
  - carmen_sandiego 6y ago
    Yes, the parallel is a rhetorical device. I don't think being shirtless is equivalent to being homeless. But I do think it's a difference of degree rather than type, and hence similar reasoning can be applied.

shalmanese 6y ago

We use the words "jobless" and "unemployed" in roughly the same grammatical formulation and to the same effect. Jobless focuses on the individual, unemployment focuses on structural factors.

carmen_sandiego 6y ago
The target of both 'jobless' and 'unemployed' is the individual, so I'm not sure how you arrive at your assertion that one doesn't focus on the individual.
meepmorp 6y ago
Joblessness is used as a synonym for unemployment in lots of news sources, as are adjectival forms like jobless claims, jobless rate, jobless benefits, etc. I understand the point you want to make, but you're not making it.
umanwizard 6y ago
> Jobless focuses on the individual, unemployment focuses on structural factors. Why?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

NamTaf 6y ago

I'd suggest that anyone who understands the stigma associated with certain terms understands that there's more nuance to this than you're suggesting. See also: the UK's use of 'sleeping rough'.

carmen_sandiego 6y ago
Sleeping rough is a term used by people straining to find the right PC phrase, not by the average person in conversation.

kgwgk 6y ago

Or person experiencing shirtlessness, maybe. But the all-encompassing, non-derogatory term would be "differently-clothed".