4 ms·

What you're describing is "corruption" and no, it does not have any positive benefit. It's the system that develops in the vacuum from a well working state, bec

by hnarn 6y ago

What you're describing is "corruption" and no, it does not have any positive benefit. It's the system that develops in the vacuum from a well working state, because when there is a general low level of trust, the quite human way to resolve that is to build "networks of trust" within society and that's not a good thing, because if you don't have a societal contract on how everyone should behave, the society won't be very nice to live in. This also has nothing to do with Islam, you'll see it in most of the developing world and of course even in developed countries, but normally more contained. I guess the extreme of this would be a country like Russia that more or less runs on bribes and favors, while at the same time having most actors accepting that nothing can be done about it.

4gotunameagain 6y ago
The reason that this is classified as an Islamic cultural aspect in my mind is the clear differentiation between coexisting societies where I grew up. The more "eastern" societal clusters have this kind of mentality more prevalent, while the most "western" ones not so much, while both are next to each other and equally poor. The fact that other cultures share these aspects does not invalidate their presence in Islamic countries in my point of view, and of course I cannot prove that this is the case, the same way that no one can prove that it is not either. Of course I could be wrong
- hnarn 6y ago
  I think that corruption and economical development being inversely correlated is pretty widely accepted, but of course it doesn't have to be linear and exactly the same in different countries. In general though, the more well off the country is, the less need there is for corruption.
  - deepsun 6y ago
    Or the other way around: the less corruption there is, the more developed is the country.
    - hnarn 6y ago
      I'm not sure what your point is. If you ask yourself what corruption is; it's not a force of nature appearing from nowhere, it's a social response in a population to uncertainty, unmet needs and danger. So a country with a history of conflict, for example, would be expected to develop some level of corruption as the fabric of society breaks down. The way you're phrasing it, it almost sounds like you're insinuating that some countries simply "are" less corrupt, and this is why they are more developed, which is perhaps a comforting thought if you happen to live in a highly developed country, but it's quite obviously not true which a simple historical review of a few centuries back can normally show.
      - prepend 6y ago
        I think they mean that reducing corruption is one of the factors that leads to economic development. Some countries are less corrupt and this leads to more development, investment, etc. It’s a low cost investment as the amount of corruption is very low, but the friction has much greater impact negatively than the cash generated. I wish I could find the paper, but economically it’s better off to give the inspectors raises above the amount from bribes as that will improve development from the things that now happen that were being blocked by bribes.
        hnarn 6y ago
        > economically it’s better off to give the inspectors raises above the amount from bribes I can't speak to whether this is verified or not, but at least it makes sense. The same logic is often used to motivate why politicians have relatively high wages, as decreasing them would incentivize bribes. It's of course not black and white and well-off politicians may still accept bribes, but at least I have a hard time seeing how the wage wouldn't be a factor. I heard a similar anecdote about badly paid police officers, how many countries have this issue where police are paid so little they pretty much have to take bribes, in a perverted sense like waiting jobs in the US "include" tips, so the notion of an uncorrupted police officer is completely foreign as you simply wouldn't be able to make ends meet.
  - kungito 6y ago
    The corruption is prevalent in all countries, it's just that in the more developed countries the corruption is only at the higher levels
    - hnarn 6y ago
      Source?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - prepend 6y ago
      There are groups tracking this and I don’t think your statement is correct as corruption does vary, based on culture, from country to country. The Corruptions Perception Index [0] is one that’s been around for a while and it shows differences between country. It’s not just GDP/PPP and there are many factors that affect it. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
  - 4gotunameagain 6y ago
    But also, haggling for example. It is something incredibly common in probably most Islamic cultures, markets/shops without prices are common place. I think the unwillingness to set a fixed price that can be judged fair or not by either parties, and the need for a back and forth or a ripoff is a related part of the mentality

by hnarn 6y ago

4gotunameagain 6y ago

The reason that this is classified as an Islamic cultural aspect in my mind is the clear differentiation between coexisting societies where I grew up. The more "eastern" societal clusters have this kind of mentality more prevalent, while the most "western" ones not so much, while both are next to each other and equally poor. The fact that other cultures share these aspects does not invalidate their presence in Islamic countries in my point of view, and of course I cannot prove that this is the case, the same way that no one can prove that it is not either. Of course I could be wrong

hnarn 6y ago
I think that corruption and economical development being inversely correlated is pretty widely accepted, but of course it doesn't have to be linear and exactly the same in different countries. In general though, the more well off the country is, the less need there is for corruption.
- deepsun 6y ago
  Or the other way around: the less corruption there is, the more developed is the country.
  - hnarn 6y ago
    I'm not sure what your point is. If you ask yourself what corruption is; it's not a force of nature appearing from nowhere, it's a social response in a population to uncertainty, unmet needs and danger. So a country with a history of conflict, for example, would be expected to develop some level of corruption as the fabric of society breaks down. The way you're phrasing it, it almost sounds like you're insinuating that some countries simply "are" less corrupt, and this is why they are more developed, which is perhaps a comforting thought if you happen to live in a highly developed country, but it's quite obviously not true which a simple historical review of a few centuries back can normally show.
    - prepend 6y ago
      I think they mean that reducing corruption is one of the factors that leads to economic development. Some countries are less corrupt and this leads to more development, investment, etc. It’s a low cost investment as the amount of corruption is very low, but the friction has much greater impact negatively than the cash generated. I wish I could find the paper, but economically it’s better off to give the inspectors raises above the amount from bribes as that will improve development from the things that now happen that were being blocked by bribes.
      - hnarn 6y ago
        > economically it’s better off to give the inspectors raises above the amount from bribes I can't speak to whether this is verified or not, but at least it makes sense. The same logic is often used to motivate why politicians have relatively high wages, as decreasing them would incentivize bribes. It's of course not black and white and well-off politicians may still accept bribes, but at least I have a hard time seeing how the wage wouldn't be a factor. I heard a similar anecdote about badly paid police officers, how many countries have this issue where police are paid so little they pretty much have to take bribes, in a perverted sense like waiting jobs in the US "include" tips, so the notion of an uncorrupted police officer is completely foreign as you simply wouldn't be able to make ends meet.
- kungito 6y ago
  The corruption is prevalent in all countries, it's just that in the more developed countries the corruption is only at the higher levels
  - hnarn 6y ago
    Source?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - prepend 6y ago
    There are groups tracking this and I don’t think your statement is correct as corruption does vary, based on culture, from country to country. The Corruptions Perception Index [0] is one that’s been around for a while and it shows differences between country. It’s not just GDP/PPP and there are many factors that affect it. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
- 4gotunameagain 6y ago
  But also, haggling for example. It is something incredibly common in probably most Islamic cultures, markets/shops without prices are common place. I think the unwillingness to set a fixed price that can be judged fair or not by either parties, and the need for a back and forth or a ripoff is a related part of the mentality