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> Then they should simply charge the higher amount. Then, to make things go smoothly, you will have to pay the higher amount as well as a bribe. > This even g

> Then they should simply charge the higher amount. Then, to make things go smoothly, you will have to pay the higher amount as well as a bribe. > This even goes higher up, as paves the way for higher levels of corruption where things needs to be at scale and yet hush hush, exposing whole nations to political risks(from money laundering to terrorism). I think you have it the opposite way around. Where there is an effective government that makes sure that laws are written and enforced fairly, and wealth is distributed somewhat evenly, corruption disappears.

beambot 6y ago
Except that the US has worse wealth inequality than Egypt as measured by the Gini index... https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/wealth-inequality-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/wealth-in... Unless you are saying that US has more corruption and a less effective government than Egypt?
- irrational 6y ago
  In my 50 years I've never encountered bribery in the USA, and I've lived all over the country. Yet, as you point out, the USA has greater wealth inequality than Egypt. So, apparently it is not wealth inequality that leads to corruption like bribery. I honestly don't know why Egypt has bribery but the USA doesn't. Maybe it is just cultural? A lot of the USA culture is derived from Europe and especially the UK. How prevalent is bribery in Western Europe?
  - quicklime 6y ago
    A country where everyone is equally poor is going to have more corruption than a country with high inequality between the middle class people and the billionaire oligarchs. I'm not saying everyone in Egypt is living in poverty, while no one in the US is. But the poverty rate in Egypt is something like 30%, vs 10% in the USA. Having said that, the US has tipping, so there's that.
  - brnt 6y ago
    To me US 'tipping culture' is very much the same in experience as bribes like these in non-western countries. I think that basing the definition in bribe on what feels uncomfortable to us personally not a good way to define it. I'm from the Netherlands, and I have heard it said that Dutch corruption exists as much as anywhere, the bribes are just always 0 euro, to ease our consciences. I wish I had a reference or two, but maybe these things are understudied.
    - galangalalgol 6y ago
      I've always viewed tips as a way to let customers decide the merit pay for employees. Does NL have the uber star rating tied to tips? It was a way to make the star rating meaningful. It used to be everyone gave five unless it was terrible service, so uber made you put money where your rating was. Edit: I remember the public transit being quite good so maybe NL doesn't have uber? I also remember waiters not being very easy to find to ask for anything.
      - brnt 6y ago
        There's Uber, but indeed, I am satisfied with public transport and have never used the likes of Uber. It's not that I never tip at a restaurant (however, seldomly in NL), it's just that in the US you'll get bills with a percentage already 'included', and it 'is understood' that you must tip _something_, in a way (to me) very similar to bribes elsewhere.
        irrational 6y ago
        Percentage included only happens for large parties (8 or more). Normally you don’t have to tip. It is entirely voluntary (though strongly encouraged since it is helping the poorest members of society). Think of it like a voluntary socialist tax to help the poor.
    - NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
      >To me US 'tipping culture' is very much the same in experience as bribes like these in non-western countries. Uh, no. Not in any sense at all are the two similar. I can't even begin to imagine how you come up with that analogy. When was the last time you tipped a government official? When was the last time you knew that unless you tipped a government official you wouldn't get your task done, even though your documents were in order? Tipping in the US is overwhelmingly to directly customer-facing staff in private companies, and it is done after the transaction has been completed. Bribery/facilitation payment is always done before the fact, and is almost uniformly done with governmental (or quasi-governmental) officials.
  - jl6 6y ago
    It’s worth noting that bribery comes in many forms, and not all cultures consider it a moral failing even where it is nominally illegal. “Facilitation payments” exist in the grey area between bribes-that-are-illegal and bribes-that-are-business-as-usual.
  - ALittleLight 6y ago
    I've bribed people twice in the US. Once, when a family member desperately needed to use the bathroom and a gas station attendant was insisting theirs was for employees only. I gave him twenty bucks and he let us use it. Another time to get a table setup for our group at a bar where they said they couldn't seat us was very similar - "Could you seat us if I gave you 60 bucks?" Turns out they could in that case. Granted, I hope these wouldn't qualify as any kind of criminal wrongdoing, and are pretty minor, but there is at least some bribery happening here!
    - el-salvador 6y ago
      One time I was an airport, and I didnt know that curbside baggage handler staff expected tips. There was no sign indicating that. And they wear airport staff uniforms. After checking in. I was asked for a tip but I wasn't able to give one because I had no change in cash. I was given a very angry look but I really had no idea about the tip. When I arrived to my destination my suitcase's wheels were damaged.
      - irrational 6y ago
        Your mistake was using the curbside baggage handlers.
- nikanj 6y ago
  The people getting fleeced are not from Egypt. You have to look at the wealth inequality between the customs officials and the passengers, not the income difference between the customs officials and their bosses.

beambot 6y ago

Except that the US has worse wealth inequality than Egypt as measured by the Gini index... https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/wealth-inequality-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/wealth-in... Unless you are saying that US has more corruption and a less effective government than Egypt?

irrational 6y ago
In my 50 years I've never encountered bribery in the USA, and I've lived all over the country. Yet, as you point out, the USA has greater wealth inequality than Egypt. So, apparently it is not wealth inequality that leads to corruption like bribery. I honestly don't know why Egypt has bribery but the USA doesn't. Maybe it is just cultural? A lot of the USA culture is derived from Europe and especially the UK. How prevalent is bribery in Western Europe?
- quicklime 6y ago
  A country where everyone is equally poor is going to have more corruption than a country with high inequality between the middle class people and the billionaire oligarchs. I'm not saying everyone in Egypt is living in poverty, while no one in the US is. But the poverty rate in Egypt is something like 30%, vs 10% in the USA. Having said that, the US has tipping, so there's that.
- brnt 6y ago
  To me US 'tipping culture' is very much the same in experience as bribes like these in non-western countries. I think that basing the definition in bribe on what feels uncomfortable to us personally not a good way to define it. I'm from the Netherlands, and I have heard it said that Dutch corruption exists as much as anywhere, the bribes are just always 0 euro, to ease our consciences. I wish I had a reference or two, but maybe these things are understudied.
  - galangalalgol 6y ago
    I've always viewed tips as a way to let customers decide the merit pay for employees. Does NL have the uber star rating tied to tips? It was a way to make the star rating meaningful. It used to be everyone gave five unless it was terrible service, so uber made you put money where your rating was. Edit: I remember the public transit being quite good so maybe NL doesn't have uber? I also remember waiters not being very easy to find to ask for anything.
    - brnt 6y ago
      There's Uber, but indeed, I am satisfied with public transport and have never used the likes of Uber. It's not that I never tip at a restaurant (however, seldomly in NL), it's just that in the US you'll get bills with a percentage already 'included', and it 'is understood' that you must tip _something_, in a way (to me) very similar to bribes elsewhere.
      - irrational 6y ago
        Percentage included only happens for large parties (8 or more). Normally you don’t have to tip. It is entirely voluntary (though strongly encouraged since it is helping the poorest members of society). Think of it like a voluntary socialist tax to help the poor.
  - NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
    >To me US 'tipping culture' is very much the same in experience as bribes like these in non-western countries. Uh, no. Not in any sense at all are the two similar. I can't even begin to imagine how you come up with that analogy. When was the last time you tipped a government official? When was the last time you knew that unless you tipped a government official you wouldn't get your task done, even though your documents were in order? Tipping in the US is overwhelmingly to directly customer-facing staff in private companies, and it is done after the transaction has been completed. Bribery/facilitation payment is always done before the fact, and is almost uniformly done with governmental (or quasi-governmental) officials.
- jl6 6y ago
  It’s worth noting that bribery comes in many forms, and not all cultures consider it a moral failing even where it is nominally illegal. “Facilitation payments” exist in the grey area between bribes-that-are-illegal and bribes-that-are-business-as-usual.
- ALittleLight 6y ago
  I've bribed people twice in the US. Once, when a family member desperately needed to use the bathroom and a gas station attendant was insisting theirs was for employees only. I gave him twenty bucks and he let us use it. Another time to get a table setup for our group at a bar where they said they couldn't seat us was very similar - "Could you seat us if I gave you 60 bucks?" Turns out they could in that case. Granted, I hope these wouldn't qualify as any kind of criminal wrongdoing, and are pretty minor, but there is at least some bribery happening here!
  - el-salvador 6y ago
    One time I was an airport, and I didnt know that curbside baggage handler staff expected tips. There was no sign indicating that. And they wear airport staff uniforms. After checking in. I was asked for a tip but I wasn't able to give one because I had no change in cash. I was given a very angry look but I really had no idea about the tip. When I arrived to my destination my suitcase's wheels were damaged.
    - irrational 6y ago
      Your mistake was using the curbside baggage handlers.
nikanj 6y ago
The people getting fleeced are not from Egypt. You have to look at the wealth inequality between the customs officials and the passengers, not the income difference between the customs officials and their bosses.