9 ms·

If youre a (seemingly) rich foreigner in a poor country, what do you expect? Per capita GDP in Egypt is $250/month. For a guy on a yacht $5 or $10 dollars is n

by anonu 6y ago

If youre a (seemingly) rich foreigner in a poor country, what do you expect? Per capita GDP in Egypt is $250/month. For a guy on a yacht $5 or $10 dollars is no difference. For the other side, its a substantial percent of their earnings. They understand the differential, which is why they will press for more.

Waterluvian 6y ago
I wonder if all poorer regions are apparently this pushy about getting their cigarettes.
- xeromal 6y ago
  I got stopped in morocco and had to bribe my way out of it unless I wanted them to take my license.
- toyg 6y ago
  Most of them are, but I reckon the number of tourists / foreigners is a factor.
ohazi 6y ago
> for some but not for me [...] makes me feel so anxious > what do you expect I think it's less about expectations and more about preferences. Sure, this might be how it works in that part of the world, but if you're not from there, and you're not accustomed to constantly looking over your shoulder, an experience like this can be harrowing. Even if you know your counterpart is just doing what they always do and not giving it a second thought, some people would be drowning in anxiety. This seems like a completely reasonable personal limit to me.
amscanne 6y ago
I think there's a lot of variation depending on the culture and context (i.e. this is a single impersonal transaction with an almost zero chance of repeat business, and probably attracts a lot of sketchy people to begin with). Many places in the world are poor but you don't feel live everyone is constantly trying to take advantage of you (but of course, the opposite is also true).
mrtksn 6y ago
Then they should simply charge the higher amount. This “dance” where they pretend to be your friends when trying to extract that money and cigarettes from you when you are trying to get a service is extremely annoying. Want cigarettes? Put cigarettes on the requirements list. Not to mention that the informality creates special class of corrupt officials that easily leads to mafia politics. Criminals develop relationships with these people and easily do stuff that they are not supposed to do and the law abiding people stress over the bribes and mood of the staff. This even goes higher up, as paves the way for higher levels of corruption where things needs to be at scale and yet hush hush, exposing whole nations to political risks(from money laundering to terrorism).
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  You misunderstand the system. The charge goes to the organisation. Then the individual guards and officials then make their own fortune using the position they were given. Think of them more as entrepreneurs or self-employed. This system of handing out unpaid or poorly paid government positions has existed throughout the world, britain in 1800 worked like this - judges were not paid, they charged defendants whatever price they wanted. In Tsarist Russia the local officials working for the state" were charging the locals for their services whatever they felt like charging them. That way the state did not have to deal with paying them salaries, it was up to officials to 'make themselves usefull to thw community' What we call corruption today is just how the world used to work before - it was not structured and not everything had a fixed price.
  - mrtksn 6y ago
    I know that tax to the government and cigarettes to the officer are different but I think in 2021 no one should deal with that, we no longer do a lot of things that were normal in the olden days. And those who feel to operate like that should maybe should be more open about the payments so we can skip the negotiation part. A carton of cigarettes is not a big deal but trying deal with the official that tries to coerce you into that payment is. It makes things slow and unpredictable. Oh and I strongly disagree with the "entrepreneur" analogy, the people who get into these lucrative positions are people close to the politically dominant class. They often "donate" some of that money to their church/mosque/party and take it easy on the people of their clan when making life hard to the outsiders. A recent case is the case of Reza Zarrab, the guy who laundered Iranian money through Turkey and get caught. He has become a billionaire and was very well connected to the Turkish political class. Erdogan himself pulled a lot of strings with Trump. Very high profile case with a lot of US and Turkish public figures being involved, you should Google it.(Spoiler: Rudolph Giuliani was on his defence team) Apparently he had an issue with a customs officer called Teoman who refused bribes so he got Teoman fired. Those informal organisations are more like cabals than corporations. It's not about entrepreneurship but loyalty to the higher ups. It does create a business but that business is reserved to the people in power and the bribe takers are simply employees. Zarrab also gave a master class in bribery. His motto was "You pay prostitutes afterwards but public officials beforehand", apparently. Good to know.
gameswithgo 6y ago
He didn't say what he expected, he said he didn't like it. They are welcome to charge whatever they want for services, it would be nice if that was just a normal up front conversation though.
santoshalper 6y ago
I live in a wealthy western country and work for a living. I would rather not work so hard. Sometimes, in my line of work I encounter very wealthy people. Billionaires. People whose spare change could change my life. People who drive cars more expensive than my home, and have a fleet of them. You know what I don't do? Try to harass, intimidate or rob them. Do you know why? Because I am not an animal. The fact that this is expected in Egypt does not speak well of their culture. This person lives in a poor country, yes, but I don't think it is likely he is starving. Some countries and cultures are just more corrupt. Some rich, some poor.
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  "You know what I don't do? Try to harass, intimidate or rob them. Do you know why? Because I am not an animal." I think you should gey off your high horse, comparing people to animals is not cool. For starters, you misunderstand the basics - are you actually sure you could harras a person with billions of dollars, connections and lawyers? Because, doing that in Russia is a good strategy to end in beried in the forest. In Brutain in 1800 judges were not paid by the state, the people being judged paid them. And the more they paid, the 'better' they were judged. That was official policy. Now obviously we call that corruption.
  - AlanYx 6y ago
    >In Brutain in 1800 judges were not paid by the state, the people being judged paid them. And the more they paid, the 'better' they were judged. That was official policy. Now obviously we call that corruption. Assuming you mean Britain, this is false. Judges in Britain have been paid by the state since the 13th century, and their oath to "in no way accept gift or reward from any party in litigation before them" dates to 1346.
    - arethuza 6y ago
      Also judges in some parts swear: "I will do right to all manner of people after the laws and usages of this Realm, without fear or favour, affection or ill-will." Almost as if the UK had multiple legal systems!
Johnny555 6y ago
If youre a (seemingly) rich foreigner in a poor country, what do you expect? Since you asked, I'd expect that professionals would do their job, not require me to bribe them to do their jobs. Which is why I wouldn't feel comfortable making this kind of trip.
- gscott 6y ago
  The corruption goes up the ladder. These folks to keep there jobs likely have to pay in cash and cigarettes to whoever controls there ability to work the canal.
- markdown 6y ago
  I feel this way about US tipping culture.
rrrazdan 6y ago
Please don’t justify corruption in poor countries. It is not a way of life. And the adverse effects of this are very long term in nature.
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  Its been around for thousands of years, so its certainly a way of life. What we should not justify is corruptuon in rich countries, because folks there aren't doing it to survive, they do it to get ahead.
fermienrico 6y ago
That should not be justification for intimidation and flat out extortion. You're phrasing this as if it is OK and should be the expectation.
- riversflow 6y ago
  Isn’t bribery the norm throughout time and place though? —and the kind of law and order we enjoy in the West, the exception? It’s understandable that this makes people who aren’t used to it uncomfortable, so does going barefoot, or not using a toilet. People are a product of their environment. My point is, it’s easy to proselytize when you are a comfortable wealthy person, adapted to and living in a state with a functional justice system.
  - fermienrico 6y ago
    Replace extortion with rape. You'll quickly realize how absurd this argument is. They're breaking their own laws decided by their own people.
    - ryan_j_naughton 6y ago
      This is a ridiculous statement. I would venture to guess that you have smoked weed in a place where it was still illegal. But breaking that law is not equivalent to rape. That's a total false equivalence. Not all laws are equally just from each person's perspective. Minor corruption like this, while corrosive, is not viewed as negatively by the local population. I would argue that the US allowing infinite money on politics and our forms of lobbying, regulatory capture, and rent seeking are way worse than this minor corruption.
      - Chris2048 6y ago
        Both rape and scamming have a perpetrator and a victim - who is the victim of smoking weed? This is less about the law, and more about the morality of victimising someone; legal harassment/threats would also fall into this category.
toomanybeersies 6y ago
> For the other side, its a substantial percent of their earnings The article infers that the measurer "measures" around half a dozen yachts a day, so they'd be collecting somewhere around $1,200 a month in bribes (which coincidentally is the same amount as the US minimum wage). That's not a substantial percent of their earnings, it's their primary income. Their government salary is just lunch money.

by anonu 6y ago

Waterluvian 6y ago

I wonder if all poorer regions are apparently this pushy about getting their cigarettes.

xeromal 6y ago
I got stopped in morocco and had to bribe my way out of it unless I wanted them to take my license.
toyg 6y ago
Most of them are, but I reckon the number of tourists / foreigners is a factor.

ohazi 6y ago

> for some but not for me [...] makes me feel so anxious > what do you expect I think it's less about expectations and more about preferences. Sure, this might be how it works in that part of the world, but if you're not from there, and you're not accustomed to constantly looking over your shoulder, an experience like this can be harrowing. Even if you know your counterpart is just doing what they always do and not giving it a second thought, some people would be drowning in anxiety. This seems like a completely reasonable personal limit to me.

amscanne 6y ago

I think there's a lot of variation depending on the culture and context (i.e. this is a single impersonal transaction with an almost zero chance of repeat business, and probably attracts a lot of sketchy people to begin with). Many places in the world are poor but you don't feel live everyone is constantly trying to take advantage of you (but of course, the opposite is also true).

mrtksn 6y ago

Then they should simply charge the higher amount. This “dance” where they pretend to be your friends when trying to extract that money and cigarettes from you when you are trying to get a service is extremely annoying. Want cigarettes? Put cigarettes on the requirements list. Not to mention that the informality creates special class of corrupt officials that easily leads to mafia politics. Criminals develop relationships with these people and easily do stuff that they are not supposed to do and the law abiding people stress over the bribes and mood of the staff. This even goes higher up, as paves the way for higher levels of corruption where things needs to be at scale and yet hush hush, exposing whole nations to political risks(from money laundering to terrorism).

ClumsyPilot 6y ago
You misunderstand the system. The charge goes to the organisation. Then the individual guards and officials then make their own fortune using the position they were given. Think of them more as entrepreneurs or self-employed. This system of handing out unpaid or poorly paid government positions has existed throughout the world, britain in 1800 worked like this - judges were not paid, they charged defendants whatever price they wanted. In Tsarist Russia the local officials working for the state" were charging the locals for their services whatever they felt like charging them. That way the state did not have to deal with paying them salaries, it was up to officials to 'make themselves usefull to thw community' What we call corruption today is just how the world used to work before - it was not structured and not everything had a fixed price.
- mrtksn 6y ago
  I know that tax to the government and cigarettes to the officer are different but I think in 2021 no one should deal with that, we no longer do a lot of things that were normal in the olden days. And those who feel to operate like that should maybe should be more open about the payments so we can skip the negotiation part. A carton of cigarettes is not a big deal but trying deal with the official that tries to coerce you into that payment is. It makes things slow and unpredictable. Oh and I strongly disagree with the "entrepreneur" analogy, the people who get into these lucrative positions are people close to the politically dominant class. They often "donate" some of that money to their church/mosque/party and take it easy on the people of their clan when making life hard to the outsiders. A recent case is the case of Reza Zarrab, the guy who laundered Iranian money through Turkey and get caught. He has become a billionaire and was very well connected to the Turkish political class. Erdogan himself pulled a lot of strings with Trump. Very high profile case with a lot of US and Turkish public figures being involved, you should Google it.(Spoiler: Rudolph Giuliani was on his defence team) Apparently he had an issue with a customs officer called Teoman who refused bribes so he got Teoman fired. Those informal organisations are more like cabals than corporations. It's not about entrepreneurship but loyalty to the higher ups. It does create a business but that business is reserved to the people in power and the bribe takers are simply employees. Zarrab also gave a master class in bribery. His motto was "You pay prostitutes afterwards but public officials beforehand", apparently. Good to know.

gameswithgo 6y ago

He didn't say what he expected, he said he didn't like it. They are welcome to charge whatever they want for services, it would be nice if that was just a normal up front conversation though.

santoshalper 6y ago

I live in a wealthy western country and work for a living. I would rather not work so hard. Sometimes, in my line of work I encounter very wealthy people. Billionaires. People whose spare change could change my life. People who drive cars more expensive than my home, and have a fleet of them. You know what I don't do? Try to harass, intimidate or rob them. Do you know why? Because I am not an animal. The fact that this is expected in Egypt does not speak well of their culture. This person lives in a poor country, yes, but I don't think it is likely he is starving. Some countries and cultures are just more corrupt. Some rich, some poor.

ClumsyPilot 6y ago
"You know what I don't do? Try to harass, intimidate or rob them. Do you know why? Because I am not an animal." I think you should gey off your high horse, comparing people to animals is not cool. For starters, you misunderstand the basics - are you actually sure you could harras a person with billions of dollars, connections and lawyers? Because, doing that in Russia is a good strategy to end in beried in the forest. In Brutain in 1800 judges were not paid by the state, the people being judged paid them. And the more they paid, the 'better' they were judged. That was official policy. Now obviously we call that corruption.
- AlanYx 6y ago
  >In Brutain in 1800 judges were not paid by the state, the people being judged paid them. And the more they paid, the 'better' they were judged. That was official policy. Now obviously we call that corruption. Assuming you mean Britain, this is false. Judges in Britain have been paid by the state since the 13th century, and their oath to "in no way accept gift or reward from any party in litigation before them" dates to 1346.
  - arethuza 6y ago
    Also judges in some parts swear: "I will do right to all manner of people after the laws and usages of this Realm, without fear or favour, affection or ill-will." Almost as if the UK had multiple legal systems!

Johnny555 6y ago

If youre a (seemingly) rich foreigner in a poor country, what do you expect? Since you asked, I'd expect that professionals would do their job, not require me to bribe them to do their jobs. Which is why I wouldn't feel comfortable making this kind of trip.

gscott 6y ago
The corruption goes up the ladder. These folks to keep there jobs likely have to pay in cash and cigarettes to whoever controls there ability to work the canal.
markdown 6y ago
I feel this way about US tipping culture.

rrrazdan 6y ago

Please don’t justify corruption in poor countries. It is not a way of life. And the adverse effects of this are very long term in nature.

ClumsyPilot 6y ago
Its been around for thousands of years, so its certainly a way of life. What we should not justify is corruptuon in rich countries, because folks there aren't doing it to survive, they do it to get ahead.

fermienrico 6y ago

That should not be justification for intimidation and flat out extortion. You're phrasing this as if it is OK and should be the expectation.

riversflow 6y ago
Isn’t bribery the norm throughout time and place though? —and the kind of law and order we enjoy in the West, the exception? It’s understandable that this makes people who aren’t used to it uncomfortable, so does going barefoot, or not using a toilet. People are a product of their environment. My point is, it’s easy to proselytize when you are a comfortable wealthy person, adapted to and living in a state with a functional justice system.
- fermienrico 6y ago
  Replace extortion with rape. You'll quickly realize how absurd this argument is. They're breaking their own laws decided by their own people.
  - ryan_j_naughton 6y ago
    This is a ridiculous statement. I would venture to guess that you have smoked weed in a place where it was still illegal. But breaking that law is not equivalent to rape. That's a total false equivalence. Not all laws are equally just from each person's perspective. Minor corruption like this, while corrosive, is not viewed as negatively by the local population. I would argue that the US allowing infinite money on politics and our forms of lobbying, regulatory capture, and rent seeking are way worse than this minor corruption.
    - Chris2048 6y ago
      Both rape and scamming have a perpetrator and a victim - who is the victim of smoking weed? This is less about the law, and more about the morality of victimising someone; legal harassment/threats would also fall into this category.

toomanybeersies 6y ago

> For the other side, its a substantial percent of their earnings The article infers that the measurer "measures" around half a dozen yachts a day, so they'd be collecting somewhere around $1,200 a month in bribes (which coincidentally is the same amount as the US minimum wage). That's not a substantial percent of their earnings, it's their primary income. Their government salary is just lunch money.