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Do you not understand the difference between the claims you’ve just made and “unable to stay in business without violating basic human rights?”

by cwhiz 6y ago

krapp 6y ago
Yes I do, I don't believe Amazon violates basic human rights, at least not on a regular basis, but their business model depends on having the option of getting as close to doing so as the law and market will allow when business needs demand it. And like any large company, they will break laws and occasionally people if the cost/benefit analysis works in their favor.
- SonicSoul 6y ago
  You are reducing employee mistreatment to a removed from reality statistic. As if staying close to not breaking the law is some kind of Bible scripture that makes it all ok. Lots of horrible things were legal in history and are legal today. Just because a company wants to “survive” doesn’t mean we can’t point out the things that are wrong and push for change. If you want to be cynical why not go the other way and say who cares if Amazon survives. Let someone else fill in that role that will prioritize their people. It’s easy to talk about statistics when you’re not the one at the bottom of this thing you’re so eloquently dismissing
  - krapp 6y ago
    >You are reducing employee mistreatment to a removed from reality statistic. As if staying close to not breaking the law is some kind of Bible scripture that makes it all ok. No, I'm arguing that corporations aren't moralistic entities, but legalistic entities, and will make decisions based on profit risk versus legal risk instead of morality versus immorality. I never said I thought it was ok. Amazon pays better than many jobs in their market, and they have a generous health and insurance package. They constantly give training and tutorials about wellness and safety, and they're fastidious about following regulations, sometimes to a Kafkaesque degree. And when no one is looking they'll push you in front of a bus to get to a dime on the sidewalk. >It’s easy to talk about statistics when you’re not the one at the bottom of this thing you’re so eloquently dismissing I'm closer to the bottom than you might think. Not everyone here is a SV bubble baby making six figures.
    - rualca 6y ago
      > No, I'm arguing that corporations aren't moralistic entities But they are, aren't they? Don't you understand that corporations are a bunch of person organized into a hierarchy? Why would anyone claim that people working within a hierarchy are free to make any immoral decision because they manage some people but answer to other? At most, you're only arguing that some hierarchies refuse to respect morals or legalities because no one is held accountable and were found to have zero consequences.
- browningstreet 6y ago
  That which they can get away with is the precedent for the new normal, aka acceptable. Companies like Amazon and Facebook re-write the norms of individual consumer and worker dignities in their favor, and then push to make them global. Because people will dismiss objections to these changes as contrivances.
- rualca 6y ago
  > Yes I do, I don't believe Amazon violates basic human rights, at least not on a regular basis (...) Isn't the propensity to violate basic human rights in such a casual and nonchalant way albeit not systematic... Extremely damning and concerning? I mean, what is there to say about the sentence "I know they commit crimes that hurt people and society, but not on a regular basis"
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - krapp 6y ago
    >Isn't the propensity to violate basic human rights in such a casual and nonchalant way albeit not systematic... Extremely damning and concerning? Absolutely, and Amazon has some blood on their hands in that regard. But let's not forget that in a capitalist society, incentives start with the consumer. The market doesn't fit for employee quality of life, but consumer quality of life. If people cared as much about labor rights in the US as they do getting their stuff a day earlier and a dollar cheaper, their wallets and their votes would speak for themselves. >I mean, what is there to say about the sentence "I know they commit crimes that hurt people and society, but not on a regular basis" You want to know what I really think? Agriculture and service industries depend on the maintenance of a permanent illegal labor underclass, militias wielding machetes and AK-47s conscript slaves for the mines that supply the world with gemstones and components for the electronics, and those electronics are assembled by children in factories that have no labor laws, but plenty of nets to catch suicides. Every branch of the entertainment industry is lubricated by prostitution and pedophilia. The tech industry exploits neurodivergent people and grinds temp workers and foreign labor into dust to make billionaires out of whatever sociopath can best figure out how to consume the minds, lives and freedoms of the public this week, and it will fight to the death to preserve the ego of a single pedophile apologist and serial harasser rather than be corrupted by the influence of women, people of color and any other marginalized group that would dare take offense, because its puerile morals were founded on and have never matured beyond 4chan. And then there's the stuff governments get into, legally and with public consent. And then there's the illegal stuff they get away with. And then there's Maude. What is there to say? For the most part, we're ok with all of it, because we have to be. We wanted these evils, we created them, nurtured them and praised the brutal elegance with which they rent the flesh, and now we're all caught inside the belly of Moloch and there's nothing to do in here but complain about the weather. Hot today, isn't it? This comment will probably be flagged, and I'm OK with that. I understand.
ocdtrekkie 6y ago
I mean, I think being able to use a bathroom is a basic human right.

Do you not understand the difference between the claims you’ve just made and “unable to stay in business without violating basic human rights?”

by cwhiz 6y ago

Do you not understand the difference between the claims you’ve just made and “unable to stay in business without violating basic human rights?”

krapp 6y ago

Yes I do, I don't believe Amazon violates basic human rights, at least not on a regular basis, but their business model depends on having the option of getting as close to doing so as the law and market will allow when business needs demand it. And like any large company, they will break laws and occasionally people if the cost/benefit analysis works in their favor.

SonicSoul 6y ago
You are reducing employee mistreatment to a removed from reality statistic. As if staying close to not breaking the law is some kind of Bible scripture that makes it all ok. Lots of horrible things were legal in history and are legal today. Just because a company wants to “survive” doesn’t mean we can’t point out the things that are wrong and push for change. If you want to be cynical why not go the other way and say who cares if Amazon survives. Let someone else fill in that role that will prioritize their people. It’s easy to talk about statistics when you’re not the one at the bottom of this thing you’re so eloquently dismissing
- krapp 6y ago
  >You are reducing employee mistreatment to a removed from reality statistic. As if staying close to not breaking the law is some kind of Bible scripture that makes it all ok. No, I'm arguing that corporations aren't moralistic entities, but legalistic entities, and will make decisions based on profit risk versus legal risk instead of morality versus immorality. I never said I thought it was ok. Amazon pays better than many jobs in their market, and they have a generous health and insurance package. They constantly give training and tutorials about wellness and safety, and they're fastidious about following regulations, sometimes to a Kafkaesque degree. And when no one is looking they'll push you in front of a bus to get to a dime on the sidewalk. >It’s easy to talk about statistics when you’re not the one at the bottom of this thing you’re so eloquently dismissing I'm closer to the bottom than you might think. Not everyone here is a SV bubble baby making six figures.
  - rualca 6y ago
    > No, I'm arguing that corporations aren't moralistic entities But they are, aren't they? Don't you understand that corporations are a bunch of person organized into a hierarchy? Why would anyone claim that people working within a hierarchy are free to make any immoral decision because they manage some people but answer to other? At most, you're only arguing that some hierarchies refuse to respect morals or legalities because no one is held accountable and were found to have zero consequences.
browningstreet 6y ago
That which they can get away with is the precedent for the new normal, aka acceptable. Companies like Amazon and Facebook re-write the norms of individual consumer and worker dignities in their favor, and then push to make them global. Because people will dismiss objections to these changes as contrivances.
rualca 6y ago
> Yes I do, I don't believe Amazon violates basic human rights, at least not on a regular basis (...) Isn't the propensity to violate basic human rights in such a casual and nonchalant way albeit not systematic... Extremely damning and concerning? I mean, what is there to say about the sentence "I know they commit crimes that hurt people and society, but not on a regular basis"
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- krapp 6y ago
  >Isn't the propensity to violate basic human rights in such a casual and nonchalant way albeit not systematic... Extremely damning and concerning? Absolutely, and Amazon has some blood on their hands in that regard. But let's not forget that in a capitalist society, incentives start with the consumer. The market doesn't fit for employee quality of life, but consumer quality of life. If people cared as much about labor rights in the US as they do getting their stuff a day earlier and a dollar cheaper, their wallets and their votes would speak for themselves. >I mean, what is there to say about the sentence "I know they commit crimes that hurt people and society, but not on a regular basis" You want to know what I really think? Agriculture and service industries depend on the maintenance of a permanent illegal labor underclass, militias wielding machetes and AK-47s conscript slaves for the mines that supply the world with gemstones and components for the electronics, and those electronics are assembled by children in factories that have no labor laws, but plenty of nets to catch suicides. Every branch of the entertainment industry is lubricated by prostitution and pedophilia. The tech industry exploits neurodivergent people and grinds temp workers and foreign labor into dust to make billionaires out of whatever sociopath can best figure out how to consume the minds, lives and freedoms of the public this week, and it will fight to the death to preserve the ego of a single pedophile apologist and serial harasser rather than be corrupted by the influence of women, people of color and any other marginalized group that would dare take offense, because its puerile morals were founded on and have never matured beyond 4chan. And then there's the stuff governments get into, legally and with public consent. And then there's the illegal stuff they get away with. And then there's Maude. What is there to say? For the most part, we're ok with all of it, because we have to be. We wanted these evils, we created them, nurtured them and praised the brutal elegance with which they rent the flesh, and now we're all caught inside the belly of Moloch and there's nothing to do in here but complain about the weather. Hot today, isn't it? This comment will probably be flagged, and I'm OK with that. I understand.

ocdtrekkie 6y ago

I mean, I think being able to use a bathroom is a basic human right.