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> This move also blindsided higher-tier employees who communicate with warehouse workers on a daily basis, and threatened to impede daily functions for onsite m

by notamy 6y ago

> This move also blindsided higher-tier employees who communicate with warehouse workers on a daily basis, and threatened to impede daily functions for onsite medical and security staff. This cannot POSSIBLY go wrong in any way, can it? I'm struggling to understand how that could ever have been approved.

ocdtrekkie 6y ago
Companies make radical and damaging changes like this when the threat of not doing so is existential. Amazon does not feel it can survive being held to standards of basic human rights in handling its employees.
- cwhiz 6y ago
  This is such absurd hyperbole. You would think Amazon is running American slave camps and kidnapping workers. By almost any account Amazon pays well and has good benefits.
  - krapp 6y ago
    Amazon also just got caught stealing millions of dollars in tips from drivers they're also being sued for paying less than minimum wage. Amazon would absolutely burn their entire infrastructure to the ground, salt the earth and piss on the ashes before giving an inch of power to their employees that they couldn't take a mile of back at their leisure, a power dynamic which unions would deny them. That's just who they are. But yes, the benefits are nice.
    - cwhiz 6y ago
      Do you not understand the difference between the claims you’ve just made and “unable to stay in business without violating basic human rights?”
      - krapp 6y ago
        Yes I do, I don't believe Amazon violates basic human rights, at least not on a regular basis, but their business model depends on having the option of getting as close to doing so as the law and market will allow when business needs demand it. And like any large company, they will break laws and occasionally people if the cost/benefit analysis works in their favor.
        SonicSoul 6y ago
        You are reducing employee mistreatment to a removed from reality statistic. As if staying close to not breaking the law is some kind of Bible scripture that makes it all ok. Lots of horrible things were legal in history and are legal today. Just because a company wants to “survive” doesn’t mean we can’t point out the things that are wrong and push for change. If you want to be cynical why not go the other way and say who cares if Amazon survives. Let someone else fill in that role that will prioritize their people. It’s easy to talk about statistics when you’re not the one at the bottom of this thing you’re so eloquently dismissing
        krapp 6y ago
        >You are reducing employee mistreatment to a removed from reality statistic. As if staying close to not breaking the law is some kind of Bible scripture that makes it all ok. No, I'm arguing that corporations aren't moralistic entities, but legalistic entities, and will make decisions based on profit risk versus legal risk instead of morality versus immorality. I never said I thought it was ok. Amazon pays better than many jobs in their market, and they have a generous health and insurance package. They constantly give training and tutorials about wellness and safety, and they're fastidious about following regulations, sometimes to a Kafkaesque degree. And when no one is looking they'll push you in front of a bus to get to a dime on the sidewalk. >It’s easy to talk about statistics when you’re not the one at the bottom of this thing you’re so eloquently dismissing I'm closer to the bottom than you might think. Not everyone here is a SV bubble baby making six figures.
        6y ago
  - ToFab123 6y ago
    Yes. With all the stories there has been published over the years about Amazon warehouse working condition "slave camp" is the term that springs to my mind when I hear the word Amazon. Being an Amazon warehouse worker must be hell. That Amazon pays so little in tax only shows, to me, that the company Amazon's only concern is to get money and that they don't care about society or humans.
    - Aerroon 6y ago
      >With all the stories there has been published over the years about Amazon warehouse working condition "slave camp" is the term that springs to my mind when I hear the word Amazon. Have you considered that it might be propaganda? Correct me if I'm wrong, but all the employees choose to work at Amazon, right? What are the other jobs like, if people still choose Amazon over the alternatives?
      - thisisjustmine 6y ago
        Amazon has been systematically destroying local businesses preventing any alternatives. So low skill workers that used to work for smaller local stores involved in the community now have to work for the replacement. I would bet if there was an alternative people would prefer higher quality of life and pay over the scraps Amazon is willing to share.
        tracer4201 6y ago
        Which local businesses does Amazon destroy? That’s a pretty wild accusation. I just visited several places last year before COVID. Pretty much all the businesses that hire warehouse skilled workers are still there. As a matter of fact, most of those places still pay the actual federal minimum wage, not $15/hr with benefits. This comment you’ve made is propaganda at best and an intentional lie at worst.
      - eximius 6y ago
        America has been running out of low-skill jobs that pay a livable wage for years.
  - frongpik 6y ago
    A third world country would indeed just run a slave camp. First world countries are more sophisticated and achieve the same result within the legal framework. They do it because they love mental gymnastics. Amazon comes to a 3rd tier town, wipes out competition by undercutting them, becomes the only employer in town and then tells the workers to bend, and they do because Amazon has made sure they have no choice.
    - krapp 6y ago
      First world countries simply outsource labor to those third world countries with more "libertarian" ideals.
  - fuzxi 6y ago
    >By almost any account Amazon pays well and has good benefits How do you square this with the huge proportion of their employees who rely on food stamps? [1] [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-employees-on-food-stamps-2018-8?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-employees-on-food-sta...
    - cwhiz 6y ago
      Amazon can’t control your family situation, and they can’t base pay on it, either. No single adult should be on food stamps with a $15/hour wage.
      - marcusverus 6y ago
        It's kind of shameless, in my opinion: 1) Obama (in the ACA) expands food stamp access by making it available to households with an income of <=133% of the poverty line. 2) food stamp enrollment rises significantly. 3) Progressives, clutching their pearls, cite "high" food stamp enrollment as an indication of the need for more Progressive policies!
        koheripbal 6y ago
        Amazon warehouse salaries start at $15.25/hr. That is more than double the US Federal minimum wage. ~$31K per year.
        cwhiz 6y ago
        MIT has a living wage calculator[0], and in most locations in the US $15/hour is a living wage for a single adult. Amazon can't alter their wage scale based on your family situation. They aren't even allowed to ask about your family situation, it's a protected class. [0]: https://livingwage.mit.edu https://livingwage.mit.edu
  - xnx 6y ago
    There's a phenomenon (which must have a name) where large companies are held to a different standard. We see this with: Amazon (there are doubtless jobs with worse conditions). Tesla (quality problems sure, but there's also some real nit-picking). Apple (class-action lawsuits around the most minor defects). Google (unbelievably clean compared to other companies and ad networks that handle personal data)
ipsocannibal 6y ago
I think [1] is related. It seems that the internal tool that was modified was the big company directory. Cutting off employees in different FC's from each other by removing them from the tool seems to be an effort to isolate the unionization contagion. Its pretty stupid, social media exists, employees will still find each other, most of what this does is make every Amazon employee believe in those leadership principles Amazon loves to bandy about a little bit less. Day 2 has arrived. 1. https://gizmodo.com/inspired-by-alabama-coworkers-amazon-workers-nationwid-1846517412 https://gizmodo.com/inspired-by-alabama-coworkers-amazon-wor...

by notamy 6y ago

ocdtrekkie 6y ago

Companies make radical and damaging changes like this when the threat of not doing so is existential. Amazon does not feel it can survive being held to standards of basic human rights in handling its employees.

cwhiz 6y ago
This is such absurd hyperbole. You would think Amazon is running American slave camps and kidnapping workers. By almost any account Amazon pays well and has good benefits.
- krapp 6y ago
  Amazon also just got caught stealing millions of dollars in tips from drivers they're also being sued for paying less than minimum wage. Amazon would absolutely burn their entire infrastructure to the ground, salt the earth and piss on the ashes before giving an inch of power to their employees that they couldn't take a mile of back at their leisure, a power dynamic which unions would deny them. That's just who they are. But yes, the benefits are nice.
  - cwhiz 6y ago
    Do you not understand the difference between the claims you’ve just made and “unable to stay in business without violating basic human rights?”
    - krapp 6y ago
      Yes I do, I don't believe Amazon violates basic human rights, at least not on a regular basis, but their business model depends on having the option of getting as close to doing so as the law and market will allow when business needs demand it. And like any large company, they will break laws and occasionally people if the cost/benefit analysis works in their favor.
      - SonicSoul 6y ago
        You are reducing employee mistreatment to a removed from reality statistic. As if staying close to not breaking the law is some kind of Bible scripture that makes it all ok. Lots of horrible things were legal in history and are legal today. Just because a company wants to “survive” doesn’t mean we can’t point out the things that are wrong and push for change. If you want to be cynical why not go the other way and say who cares if Amazon survives. Let someone else fill in that role that will prioritize their people. It’s easy to talk about statistics when you’re not the one at the bottom of this thing you’re so eloquently dismissing
        krapp 6y ago
        >You are reducing employee mistreatment to a removed from reality statistic. As if staying close to not breaking the law is some kind of Bible scripture that makes it all ok. No, I'm arguing that corporations aren't moralistic entities, but legalistic entities, and will make decisions based on profit risk versus legal risk instead of morality versus immorality. I never said I thought it was ok. Amazon pays better than many jobs in their market, and they have a generous health and insurance package. They constantly give training and tutorials about wellness and safety, and they're fastidious about following regulations, sometimes to a Kafkaesque degree. And when no one is looking they'll push you in front of a bus to get to a dime on the sidewalk. >It’s easy to talk about statistics when you’re not the one at the bottom of this thing you’re so eloquently dismissing I'm closer to the bottom than you might think. Not everyone here is a SV bubble baby making six figures.
        6y ago
- ToFab123 6y ago
  Yes. With all the stories there has been published over the years about Amazon warehouse working condition "slave camp" is the term that springs to my mind when I hear the word Amazon. Being an Amazon warehouse worker must be hell. That Amazon pays so little in tax only shows, to me, that the company Amazon's only concern is to get money and that they don't care about society or humans.
  - Aerroon 6y ago
    >With all the stories there has been published over the years about Amazon warehouse working condition "slave camp" is the term that springs to my mind when I hear the word Amazon. Have you considered that it might be propaganda? Correct me if I'm wrong, but all the employees choose to work at Amazon, right? What are the other jobs like, if people still choose Amazon over the alternatives?
    - thisisjustmine 6y ago
      Amazon has been systematically destroying local businesses preventing any alternatives. So low skill workers that used to work for smaller local stores involved in the community now have to work for the replacement. I would bet if there was an alternative people would prefer higher quality of life and pay over the scraps Amazon is willing to share.
      - tracer4201 6y ago
        Which local businesses does Amazon destroy? That’s a pretty wild accusation. I just visited several places last year before COVID. Pretty much all the businesses that hire warehouse skilled workers are still there. As a matter of fact, most of those places still pay the actual federal minimum wage, not $15/hr with benefits. This comment you’ve made is propaganda at best and an intentional lie at worst.
    - eximius 6y ago
      America has been running out of low-skill jobs that pay a livable wage for years.
- frongpik 6y ago
  A third world country would indeed just run a slave camp. First world countries are more sophisticated and achieve the same result within the legal framework. They do it because they love mental gymnastics. Amazon comes to a 3rd tier town, wipes out competition by undercutting them, becomes the only employer in town and then tells the workers to bend, and they do because Amazon has made sure they have no choice.
  - krapp 6y ago
    First world countries simply outsource labor to those third world countries with more "libertarian" ideals.
- fuzxi 6y ago
  >By almost any account Amazon pays well and has good benefits How do you square this with the huge proportion of their employees who rely on food stamps? [1] [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-employees-on-food-stamps-2018-8?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-employees-on-food-sta...
  - cwhiz 6y ago
    Amazon can’t control your family situation, and they can’t base pay on it, either. No single adult should be on food stamps with a $15/hour wage.
    - marcusverus 6y ago
      It's kind of shameless, in my opinion: 1) Obama (in the ACA) expands food stamp access by making it available to households with an income of <=133% of the poverty line. 2) food stamp enrollment rises significantly. 3) Progressives, clutching their pearls, cite "high" food stamp enrollment as an indication of the need for more Progressive policies!
      - koheripbal 6y ago
        Amazon warehouse salaries start at $15.25/hr. That is more than double the US Federal minimum wage. ~$31K per year.
      - cwhiz 6y ago
        MIT has a living wage calculator[0], and in most locations in the US $15/hour is a living wage for a single adult. Amazon can't alter their wage scale based on your family situation. They aren't even allowed to ask about your family situation, it's a protected class. [0]: https://livingwage.mit.edu https://livingwage.mit.edu
- xnx 6y ago
  There's a phenomenon (which must have a name) where large companies are held to a different standard. We see this with: Amazon (there are doubtless jobs with worse conditions). Tesla (quality problems sure, but there's also some real nit-picking). Apple (class-action lawsuits around the most minor defects). Google (unbelievably clean compared to other companies and ad networks that handle personal data)

ipsocannibal 6y ago

I think [1] is related. It seems that the internal tool that was modified was the big company directory. Cutting off employees in different FC's from each other by removing them from the tool seems to be an effort to isolate the unionization contagion. Its pretty stupid, social media exists, employees will still find each other, most of what this does is make every Amazon employee believe in those leadership principles Amazon loves to bandy about a little bit less. Day 2 has arrived. 1. https://gizmodo.com/inspired-by-alabama-coworkers-amazon-workers-nationwid-1846517412 https://gizmodo.com/inspired-by-alabama-coworkers-amazon-wor...