4 ms·

What circumstances are these? Mobs going around digging up whatever they can to bully people?

pm90 6y ago
> Mobs going around digging up whatever they can to bully people? Vulnerable parts of our community coming forward with their experiences allowing us to understand the pain they experienced due to tone deaf comments and actions by those that were held in high esteem. I would like the community to be welcoming to people of every background. Actions and comments that constitute harassment absolutely should not be tolerated, especially from those who are entrusted with power.
- liaukovv 6y ago
  What constitutes harrassment is defined by internal state of the receiving side. I don't think we should be obligated to read everybody's mind at all times. The only standards communication should be held to is honesty and good will.
  - pm90 6y ago
    > I don't think we should be obligated to read everybody's mind at all times. The only standards communication should be held to is honesty and good will. Strawman argument. Nobody's arguing this. The expectation is not perfection, but a certain minimum standard of respect and understanding from those who hold power. Nobody is asking for him to be imprisoned over his comments. But his comments and actions have clearly shown that he lacks the skills required to be in a leadership position in the community.
    - liaukovv 6y ago
      So suddenly his crime is not harassment, but merely not having enough understanding of other peoples minds? And somehow this shows he is not a good leader?
      - __blockcipher__ 6y ago
        I’m not a copyleft person myself - I prefer Apache 2.0 style licenses - but I have so much respect for RMS and everything he’s accomplished, and I find it laughable that we can’t agree that he and his organization have been insanely effective. If I can speak casually for a second I have no doubt that if they oust RMS they’d replace him with a diversity hire who simply is not singlemindedly focused on free software enough to actually fight like they need to. I think it’s really easy to underestimate the extent to which being absurdly logical to a fault and incredibly principled is critical for success in RMS’ position, and that’s what he offers warts and all. You don’t have to like the guy, you can think he’s a dick, but can we at least agree that he does mot have a track record of being malicious and at least half the controversial things he’s said aren’t even unreasonable they’re just the things you’re not supposed to say
- caeril 6y ago
  > Actions and comments that constitute harassment Funny anecdote. Paul Steed (RIP) was notorious for conducting himself in a manner that was akin to RMS x20 in all manner of professional (let alone social) settings. Game developer conferences, company-adjacent deathmatches and lan parties, etc. His lewd comments and actions went far, far beyond any parody you could possibly think of for RMS's offer for "tender embraces". Thing is, nobody complained - even posthumously. There is a fair argument to be made that this is due to the fact that he looked like Paul Steed. Actions and comments don't constitute harassment in a vacuum. That is a judgement that is up to the recipient of said actions and comments.
  - bitwize 6y ago
    Careful. A man making sexual advances while not sufficiently attractive is harassment. But if you, as a man, are not attracted to obese women, it's misogynistic. If you are not attracted to a born male in a dress (possibly still sporting male tackle), it's transphobic.
frakkingcylons 6y ago
It’s not like you have to root through garbage cans to find the things that RMS has said. They’re all on his blog, the whole time.
tittenfick 6y ago
If you think the stuff he said about pedophilia is OK, I don't know what to tell you. This is not a mob, these are normal people who are disgusted. I quote: "We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates."
- liaukovv 6y ago
  I don't see a flaw in this statement.
- caeril 6y ago
  It's a legitimate and logical statement made by someone who is most assuredly on the spectrum, and likely lacks the visceral aversion many feel about the topic. Judging those with Asperger's specifically for a well-documented aspect of their condition is an interesting take. Be sure to tell any friends of yours who suffer from depression to "just cheer up" while you're at it.
  - bitwize 6y ago
    > lacks the visceral aversion many feel about the topic. Or he's willing to "go there" and discuss the matter the same way people discuss grisly murder in abstract, detached terms. What he's not aware of are the social taboos around discussing these topics, especially in a way that casts child sexual predatory acts as "less bad" than other acts. In other words, he's unaware of others' visceral aversion.
- __blockcipher__ 6y ago
  In context his statement was entirely reasonable. Separately I find it hilarious that he’s called transphobic because he believes in non-binary identity but doesn’t believe in grammatical usage of the singular they (FWIW I naturally use the singular they and reject the idea that it’s invalid, but ironically I too fall afoul of it because I use the singular they as a genderless singular but now the trans community has made they its own pronoun meaning my usage of they as a sane default is itself considered transphobic...sigh...)

pm90 6y ago

> Mobs going around digging up whatever they can to bully people? Vulnerable parts of our community coming forward with their experiences allowing us to understand the pain they experienced due to tone deaf comments and actions by those that were held in high esteem. I would like the community to be welcoming to people of every background. Actions and comments that constitute harassment absolutely should not be tolerated, especially from those who are entrusted with power.

liaukovv 6y ago
What constitutes harrassment is defined by internal state of the receiving side. I don't think we should be obligated to read everybody's mind at all times. The only standards communication should be held to is honesty and good will.
- pm90 6y ago
  > I don't think we should be obligated to read everybody's mind at all times. The only standards communication should be held to is honesty and good will. Strawman argument. Nobody's arguing this. The expectation is not perfection, but a certain minimum standard of respect and understanding from those who hold power. Nobody is asking for him to be imprisoned over his comments. But his comments and actions have clearly shown that he lacks the skills required to be in a leadership position in the community.
  - liaukovv 6y ago
    So suddenly his crime is not harassment, but merely not having enough understanding of other peoples minds? And somehow this shows he is not a good leader?
    - __blockcipher__ 6y ago
      I’m not a copyleft person myself - I prefer Apache 2.0 style licenses - but I have so much respect for RMS and everything he’s accomplished, and I find it laughable that we can’t agree that he and his organization have been insanely effective. If I can speak casually for a second I have no doubt that if they oust RMS they’d replace him with a diversity hire who simply is not singlemindedly focused on free software enough to actually fight like they need to. I think it’s really easy to underestimate the extent to which being absurdly logical to a fault and incredibly principled is critical for success in RMS’ position, and that’s what he offers warts and all. You don’t have to like the guy, you can think he’s a dick, but can we at least agree that he does mot have a track record of being malicious and at least half the controversial things he’s said aren’t even unreasonable they’re just the things you’re not supposed to say
caeril 6y ago
> Actions and comments that constitute harassment Funny anecdote. Paul Steed (RIP) was notorious for conducting himself in a manner that was akin to RMS x20 in all manner of professional (let alone social) settings. Game developer conferences, company-adjacent deathmatches and lan parties, etc. His lewd comments and actions went far, far beyond any parody you could possibly think of for RMS's offer for "tender embraces". Thing is, nobody complained - even posthumously. There is a fair argument to be made that this is due to the fact that he looked like Paul Steed. Actions and comments don't constitute harassment in a vacuum. That is a judgement that is up to the recipient of said actions and comments.
- bitwize 6y ago
  Careful. A man making sexual advances while not sufficiently attractive is harassment. But if you, as a man, are not attracted to obese women, it's misogynistic. If you are not attracted to a born male in a dress (possibly still sporting male tackle), it's transphobic.

frakkingcylons 6y ago

It’s not like you have to root through garbage cans to find the things that RMS has said. They’re all on his blog, the whole time.

tittenfick 6y ago

If you think the stuff he said about pedophilia is OK, I don't know what to tell you. This is not a mob, these are normal people who are disgusted. I quote: "We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates."

liaukovv 6y ago
I don't see a flaw in this statement.
caeril 6y ago
It's a legitimate and logical statement made by someone who is most assuredly on the spectrum, and likely lacks the visceral aversion many feel about the topic. Judging those with Asperger's specifically for a well-documented aspect of their condition is an interesting take. Be sure to tell any friends of yours who suffer from depression to "just cheer up" while you're at it.
- bitwize 6y ago
  > lacks the visceral aversion many feel about the topic. Or he's willing to "go there" and discuss the matter the same way people discuss grisly murder in abstract, detached terms. What he's not aware of are the social taboos around discussing these topics, especially in a way that casts child sexual predatory acts as "less bad" than other acts. In other words, he's unaware of others' visceral aversion.
__blockcipher__ 6y ago
In context his statement was entirely reasonable. Separately I find it hilarious that he’s called transphobic because he believes in non-binary identity but doesn’t believe in grammatical usage of the singular they (FWIW I naturally use the singular they and reject the idea that it’s invalid, but ironically I too fall afoul of it because I use the singular they as a genderless singular but now the trans community has made they its own pronoun meaning my usage of they as a sane default is itself considered transphobic...sigh...)