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> Asking women to have sex Not one women including the "evidence" gathered in the original Medium posts mention that. Actual examples they do mention are quite

> Asking women to have sex Not one women including the "evidence" gathered in the original Medium posts mention that. Actual examples they do mention are quite common for socially inept individuals. > Parading a bed For a long time, Stallman lived in his office. I have known other academics who preferred to do the same. Again, not one person has come forward and said that Stallman ever invited them to that bed. > how one shouldn't assume a minor (that was provided by epstein) wasn't willing to have sex He did not say that at all. Re-read the emails again. Hint, he uses the word "presented" which completely changes the meaning of the sentence. For someone precise like Stallman, every word matters. Anyway, I have read the emails multiple times now and his only message was to reconsider all the facts first given the serious allegation of "sexual assault" on Minsky. Just because the media has twisted it does not make them true.

__blockcipher__ 6y ago
> Just because the media has twisted it does not make them true. And you may already be aware of this, but for any third parties reading this, please be aware that these types of things are not a one-off innocent mistake. When you start actually looking you realize that literally everything the corporate press outputs is all part of a carefully crafted narrative, and at no point does actual capital-T Truth come into play. See also: Gell-Mann Amnesia effect (except more malicious)
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  I have literally never read a corporate press article on this subject, all the data I have comes from independent allegations made by people who did contribute to free software.
  - __blockcipher__ 6y ago
    I wasn’t replying to you to be clear, it was a general statement. However your characterization of his comments wrt Minksy does make me question your credibility. If you couldn’t honestly characterize them, it is more likely that you could be equally disingenuous in recounting “independent allegations”.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      I've come to that conclusion after reading the emails by myself. Sexual relations with minors outside of Romeo and Juliet cases is always sexual assault, and it's even moreso when you're meeting those minors after stepping into the "Lolita Express", at the direct behest of someone that was publicly known to be in the sex trafficking business. Where I live that is unambiguously at least sexual assault, if not worse.
      - __blockcipher__ 6y ago
        Minsky denies having sex - not that he ever wouldn’t if he did have sex - but my understanding is that she was above the age of consent in the jurisdiction they were in, assuming he knew her age. “Where you live” should not be the determinant here I don’t see how Stallman’s admittedly autistic comments are damning. He was pointing out that it is very plausible that to Minsky the girl presented herself as willing and consenting despite secretly being coerced by Epstein.
        sudosysgen 6y ago
        I'm not a moral legalist nor an absolute moral relativist. Flying out to a different jurisdiction to do morally wrong things doesn't make out any better. I don't understand how you could pretend that Epstein's coercion was secret. It was literally a matter of public record.
        __blockcipher__ 6y ago
        You changed the goalposts. We're not discussing whether it's moral or not. We're discussing Stallman's comment that the interaction between Minksy and the girl was plausibly not sexual assault - specifically whether his comment was unreasonable or not. Obviously I'm not endorsing having sex with one of Epstein's victims...
        sudosysgen 6y ago
        No, I'm not changing the goalposts. My definition of sexual assault doesn't change depending on where in the world the sexual assault takes places. Having sexual encounters with an underage person is at least sexual assault, full stop. I don't care if you flew to an island where it's technically legal beforehand or if local laws are different.
kitsune_ 6y ago
I mean these allegations from established researchers etc. are pretty damning https://twitter.com/grok_/status/1375049417926053894 https://twitter.com/grok_/status/1375049417926053894
- __blockcipher__ 6y ago
  Are they? Forgive me for being skeptical post-Kavanaugh but I find it hard to believe that Stallman licked somebody in public without it being big news... I think we need to have actual standards of evidence when it comes to booting someone not just from the FSF but the community as a whole
sudosysgen 6y ago
>Not one women including the "evidence" gathered in the original Medium posts mention that. Actual examples they do mention are quite common for socially inept individuals. I said allegations. This doesn't come from the original Medium post, but the recent update. I was hopelessly socially inept and never did such a thing. >He did not say that at all. Re-read the emails again. Hint, he uses the word "presented" which completely changes the meaning of the sentence. For someone precise like Stallman, every word matters. Anyway, I have read the emails multiple times now and his only message was to reconsider all the facts first given the serious allegation of "sexual assault" on Minsky. Just because the media has twisted it does not make them true. Wether someone presents or doesn't has no bearing on it being sexual assault. Sexual acts with a minor are always sexual assault unless Romeo and Juliet laws apply, full stop. There is no need to put it in quotes. Besides, it was abundantly clear to Minsky that these women were minors and that there was a high chance of sexual trafficking.

__blockcipher__ 6y ago

> Just because the media has twisted it does not make them true. And you may already be aware of this, but for any third parties reading this, please be aware that these types of things are not a one-off innocent mistake. When you start actually looking you realize that literally everything the corporate press outputs is all part of a carefully crafted narrative, and at no point does actual capital-T Truth come into play. See also: Gell-Mann Amnesia effect (except more malicious)

sudosysgen 6y ago
I have literally never read a corporate press article on this subject, all the data I have comes from independent allegations made by people who did contribute to free software.
- __blockcipher__ 6y ago
  I wasn’t replying to you to be clear, it was a general statement. However your characterization of his comments wrt Minksy does make me question your credibility. If you couldn’t honestly characterize them, it is more likely that you could be equally disingenuous in recounting “independent allegations”.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    I've come to that conclusion after reading the emails by myself. Sexual relations with minors outside of Romeo and Juliet cases is always sexual assault, and it's even moreso when you're meeting those minors after stepping into the "Lolita Express", at the direct behest of someone that was publicly known to be in the sex trafficking business. Where I live that is unambiguously at least sexual assault, if not worse.
    - __blockcipher__ 6y ago
      Minsky denies having sex - not that he ever wouldn’t if he did have sex - but my understanding is that she was above the age of consent in the jurisdiction they were in, assuming he knew her age. “Where you live” should not be the determinant here I don’t see how Stallman’s admittedly autistic comments are damning. He was pointing out that it is very plausible that to Minsky the girl presented herself as willing and consenting despite secretly being coerced by Epstein.
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        I'm not a moral legalist nor an absolute moral relativist. Flying out to a different jurisdiction to do morally wrong things doesn't make out any better. I don't understand how you could pretend that Epstein's coercion was secret. It was literally a matter of public record.
        __blockcipher__ 6y ago
        You changed the goalposts. We're not discussing whether it's moral or not. We're discussing Stallman's comment that the interaction between Minksy and the girl was plausibly not sexual assault - specifically whether his comment was unreasonable or not. Obviously I'm not endorsing having sex with one of Epstein's victims...
        sudosysgen 6y ago
        No, I'm not changing the goalposts. My definition of sexual assault doesn't change depending on where in the world the sexual assault takes places. Having sexual encounters with an underage person is at least sexual assault, full stop. I don't care if you flew to an island where it's technically legal beforehand or if local laws are different.

kitsune_ 6y ago

I mean these allegations from established researchers etc. are pretty damning https://twitter.com/grok_/status/1375049417926053894 https://twitter.com/grok_/status/1375049417926053894

__blockcipher__ 6y ago
Are they? Forgive me for being skeptical post-Kavanaugh but I find it hard to believe that Stallman licked somebody in public without it being big news... I think we need to have actual standards of evidence when it comes to booting someone not just from the FSF but the community as a whole

sudosysgen 6y ago

>Not one women including the "evidence" gathered in the original Medium posts mention that. Actual examples they do mention are quite common for socially inept individuals. I said allegations. This doesn't come from the original Medium post, but the recent update. I was hopelessly socially inept and never did such a thing. >He did not say that at all. Re-read the emails again. Hint, he uses the word "presented" which completely changes the meaning of the sentence. For someone precise like Stallman, every word matters. Anyway, I have read the emails multiple times now and his only message was to reconsider all the facts first given the serious allegation of "sexual assault" on Minsky. Just because the media has twisted it does not make them true. Wether someone presents or doesn't has no bearing on it being sexual assault. Sexual acts with a minor are always sexual assault unless Romeo and Juliet laws apply, full stop. There is no need to put it in quotes. Besides, it was abundantly clear to Minsky that these women were minors and that there was a high chance of sexual trafficking.