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Actually I think students need to learn to use apt. I swear, the entire reason I got comfortable with the command line is because when I was 16 I couldn't affor

Actually I think students need to learn to use apt. I swear, the entire reason I got comfortable with the command line is because when I was 16 I couldn't afford a Windows license, and I ordered a free Ubuntu CD. I'm still very good with the terminal and it serves me well in my six-figure career

jordache 6y ago
think about barrier of entry. Your anecdotal life story of overcoming early challenges with linux, that benefited your subsequent career is likely not scalable to the entire human population. I think any reasonable person will align with the notion that low barrier of entry, coupled with an engaging curriculum to grow their level of computing expertise, will net much greater success.
- offtop5 6y ago
  But why not. The worst thing that happens is maybe a teacher needs to reflash the OS, if you tell kids that no we're not going to play Minecraft today, we're going to make Minecraft you can inspire a lifelong love of programming. Sometimes you just got to strap yourself in and embrace the the terminal. If you're too afraid to try you'll never learn. Once around the same time I actually fried a motherboard by not mounting it properly, a nice computer repair shop owner gave me a bunch of motherboard spacers for free and told me to never Mount the motherboard directly to the case again. I actually love programming in that it's one of the last Fields where you can teach yourself how to do amazing things for free. Sure if you need to deploy things you might need to spend two or three bucks a month on AWS, but even then you can get so much done locally.
  - jordache 6y ago
    You need a carrot at the end of the stick. Ramp up the complexity, with appropriate award system, to help with engagement. Your retroactive approach is saying - gosh, if I had my present day wisdom when I was I kid, then imagine all tactical things I can learn like apt or vim. I'm saying that is not a sustainable approach given a dataset that is the human population.
    - offtop5 6y ago
      Actually I'm trying to say the opposite, I knew nothing when I was a kid. There was something awesome about getting your Wi-Fi driver to work after fighting it for 3 hours. It was very awesome struggle with Linux as a kid, not everything needs to be easy
crooked-v 6y ago
I'd add to that: 'toy' CLI programs like fortune, cowsay, figlet, rev, etc, and some simple examples on how to wire them together using pipes, redirection, and substitutions.
grawprog 6y ago
I've never really understood why command lines are so intimidating for people. Especially in today's world where you can search up whatever commands you need fairly effortlessly through the power of the internet. A large majority of simple command line use cases tend to be $Command, $options $input file/directory $output file/directory That shouldn't be overly complicated for honestly most people with literacy who are capable of functioning in modern society.
- offtop5 6y ago
  And plus apt get install or whatever your distro is equivalent is is infinitely easier than searching the internet to try and find what you want. I reckon a kid who can install apps on Ubuntu and troubleshoot basic issues can probably get a tech support job right out of high school if they put a good effort in.
- jolux 6y ago
  >I've never really understood why command lines are so intimidating for people. Really? The most popular computing device of our time is the smartphone, and you don't understand why people find command lines intimidating? Command lines are unforgiving, frequently obscure, and will let you delete files and break things without blinking. There's plenty to be intimidated by for people who have no need to learn the skills.
  - carlosf 6y ago
    Just a thought: that is more related to security models than to GUI vs CLI. In Windows you can delete and break things if you're a local admin. Warning messages got better, but using a PC also used to be intimidating. Smartphones on the other hand lock all apps by default, which is way better to novices. I believe CLIs might be made friendlier with the correct segregation / security model.
    - asdff 6y ago
      The lack of discovery makes it harder to learn CLIs, they need to be studied and memorized basically. There is no intuitive way to ever learn that you need to type "man bash" into the terminal to start this journey, for example. These are meaningless words to the layman, despite holding so much meaning to someone already fluent in bash.
bandyaboot 6y ago
But why is learning to use apt the correct layer of abstraction? Could you not just as easily say kids shouldn’t use apt—they need to learn to build from source?
- cyberbanjo 6y ago
  It's a gateway drug, I successfully installed with apt, then with make, then moved to live in the CLI.
Skhalar 6y ago
Apt and dnf/yum. 90% of Linux usage is rhel based (personal machine is fedora). And the other 10% is aws Ubuntu. Id saying get good at 1 and know thr basics with tht other.
- stragies 6y ago
  That may be regional. Over here I see ~5 Deb/Ubuntu installations for every RedHat-derivative.

jordache 6y ago

think about barrier of entry. Your anecdotal life story of overcoming early challenges with linux, that benefited your subsequent career is likely not scalable to the entire human population. I think any reasonable person will align with the notion that low barrier of entry, coupled with an engaging curriculum to grow their level of computing expertise, will net much greater success.

offtop5 6y ago
But why not. The worst thing that happens is maybe a teacher needs to reflash the OS, if you tell kids that no we're not going to play Minecraft today, we're going to make Minecraft you can inspire a lifelong love of programming. Sometimes you just got to strap yourself in and embrace the the terminal. If you're too afraid to try you'll never learn. Once around the same time I actually fried a motherboard by not mounting it properly, a nice computer repair shop owner gave me a bunch of motherboard spacers for free and told me to never Mount the motherboard directly to the case again. I actually love programming in that it's one of the last Fields where you can teach yourself how to do amazing things for free. Sure if you need to deploy things you might need to spend two or three bucks a month on AWS, but even then you can get so much done locally.
- jordache 6y ago
  You need a carrot at the end of the stick. Ramp up the complexity, with appropriate award system, to help with engagement. Your retroactive approach is saying - gosh, if I had my present day wisdom when I was I kid, then imagine all tactical things I can learn like apt or vim. I'm saying that is not a sustainable approach given a dataset that is the human population.
  - offtop5 6y ago
    Actually I'm trying to say the opposite, I knew nothing when I was a kid. There was something awesome about getting your Wi-Fi driver to work after fighting it for 3 hours. It was very awesome struggle with Linux as a kid, not everything needs to be easy

crooked-v 6y ago

I'd add to that: 'toy' CLI programs like fortune, cowsay, figlet, rev, etc, and some simple examples on how to wire them together using pipes, redirection, and substitutions.

grawprog 6y ago

I've never really understood why command lines are so intimidating for people. Especially in today's world where you can search up whatever commands you need fairly effortlessly through the power of the internet. A large majority of simple command line use cases tend to be $Command, $options $input file/directory $output file/directory That shouldn't be overly complicated for honestly most people with literacy who are capable of functioning in modern society.

offtop5 6y ago
And plus apt get install or whatever your distro is equivalent is is infinitely easier than searching the internet to try and find what you want. I reckon a kid who can install apps on Ubuntu and troubleshoot basic issues can probably get a tech support job right out of high school if they put a good effort in.
jolux 6y ago
>I've never really understood why command lines are so intimidating for people. Really? The most popular computing device of our time is the smartphone, and you don't understand why people find command lines intimidating? Command lines are unforgiving, frequently obscure, and will let you delete files and break things without blinking. There's plenty to be intimidated by for people who have no need to learn the skills.
- carlosf 6y ago
  Just a thought: that is more related to security models than to GUI vs CLI. In Windows you can delete and break things if you're a local admin. Warning messages got better, but using a PC also used to be intimidating. Smartphones on the other hand lock all apps by default, which is way better to novices. I believe CLIs might be made friendlier with the correct segregation / security model.
  - asdff 6y ago
    The lack of discovery makes it harder to learn CLIs, they need to be studied and memorized basically. There is no intuitive way to ever learn that you need to type "man bash" into the terminal to start this journey, for example. These are meaningless words to the layman, despite holding so much meaning to someone already fluent in bash.

bandyaboot 6y ago

But why is learning to use apt the correct layer of abstraction? Could you not just as easily say kids shouldn’t use apt—they need to learn to build from source?

cyberbanjo 6y ago
It's a gateway drug, I successfully installed with apt, then with make, then moved to live in the CLI.

Skhalar 6y ago

Apt and dnf/yum. 90% of Linux usage is rhel based (personal machine is fedora). And the other 10% is aws Ubuntu. Id saying get good at 1 and know thr basics with tht other.

stragies 6y ago
That may be regional. Over here I see ~5 Deb/Ubuntu installations for every RedHat-derivative.