5 ms·

For these jobs you have industrial areas outside of the city skirts and good public transportation to/from the city neighbourhoods, good as in: accessible, fast

by piva00 6y ago

For these jobs you have industrial areas outside of the city skirts and good public transportation to/from the city neighbourhoods, good as in: accessible, fast and ubiquitous. That's how The Netherlands do and I really like their cities.

sandworm101 6y ago
>> For these jobs you have industrial areas outside of the city skirts and good public transportation to/from the city neighbourhoods So... zoning. How is that any different than cities today? How then is the "20-minute city" any different than a city today + better public transport? My point is that people calling for integrated cities with services all within walking distances need also to accommodate the dirty/loud/dangerous jobs. Outsourcing such things to beyond the city limits is simply a repeat of current zoning policies using different names. The "20-minute city" concept boils down to just another call for better public transportation options. Ok. Cool. Do that. Just don't pretend you are doing anything revolutionary.
- FalconSensei 6y ago
  Yes zoning, but only for some things. You don't need to have all office spaces in downtown. You don't need only big supermarkets that are in just a few neighbourhoods. If less people have to move over long distances, it makes easier for the ones that need to.
  - quantumwannabe 6y ago
    So...a car dependent city then. They tend to have their office buildings distributed fairly evenly throughout the metro area and have a supermarket in pretty much every neighborhood. Every daily need and lots of non-daily needs are less than 20 minutes away. Just admit that you want public transit and high density and stop trying to weasel around saying so. All of the benefits professed about dense living already exist in most car dependent cities, with the only difference being the mode of transportation used. In a car dependent area, industrial areas are also part of the 20-minute neighborhood without the downsides of having to live a 20 minutes walk from them. Outside of a handful of cities (mostly on the West Coast) that failed to expand their infrastructure when their populations grew, people in car dependent areas already live in 20 minute neighborhoods. You just disagree with their lifestyle and transportation choices. If someone comes along and builds lots of 100 story skyscrapers when the transit system can only support 10 story buildings, the same issue will befall your beloved dense public transit dependent city.
    - FalconSensei 6y ago
      No. It's about not needing a car. Also, as many mentioned here: in Europe and U.K. you have less dense areas or small towns where you have everything you need there. While in some places in US you might only get groceries in a 30 min drive to Walmart. Changing a 30 min car drive to a 45 min bus ride doesn't solve the problem.
      - quantumwannabe 6y ago
        Someone who is driving 30 minutes to a store lives in an area so rural they don't even live in a town or in a town so small no business could be profitable. A person living in a similar area in the UK would also have to drive. A 30 minute drive on the highway is over 30 miles - more than the diameter of most cities. Subtract a little time for parking and time spent on city streets and you can still get pretty much anywhere in an entire city in less than half an hour door to door. Most people in the US already live in a 20 minute (or less) city. You also just made my point - "it's about not needing a car". Why do you care that someone uses a car? The person living in the suburbs spends around the same amount of time transiting to their daily destinations as someone in a dense area does. So for someone who doesn't mind driving (i.e. most people), your proposed solution to their "problem" (which they don't have) offers little benefit but comes with downsides like smaller (or no) houses.
        coryrc 6y ago
        > Why do you care that someone uses a car? Because the elderly and young can't use them, the poor sacrifice too much to have one.
        piva00 6y ago
        > Why do you care that someone uses a car? I don't care if they use a car, I care if they need a car to do basic things such as: grocery shopping, going to a café, to a restaurant, to a park, to meet friends and so on. I really care if a car is a basic necessity for life, it's stupid, I came from such a country and it's just stressful, stressful to drive in traffic, stressful to maintain a car's upkeep, taxes, parking spot. All of that eats your money so you can have a care idling 95-99% of the time, it's a waste of resources, both financial and mental. > So for someone who doesn't mind driving (i.e. most people) How can you state that? Do you have data to corroborate this statement? What culture are you talking about? I believe you see all of this too much with a US-centric myopic approach, the kinds of cities being discussed already exist in other parts of Earth, have you lived in one of them?
- Ap777 6y ago
  It isn't zoning when it happens naturslly >Town is built. >convenience store is willing to pay a premium for land that puts it in close proximity of potential customers. >meat plant is not because they aren't banking on Joe Schmoe strolling by going "huh yknow what I could use 35lbs of beef"
  - sandworm101 6y ago
    Meat plants are not placed near customers. They are placed near employees. The goods are then shipped wide and far. "Natural" zoning did indeed see slaughterhouses inside major cities, right in the middle of residential areas. Zoning and health codes then pushed such industries outside cities. They are now placed wherever labor is cheap. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Stock_Yards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Stock_Yards "Two thousand men worked directly for the Union Stock Yard & Transit Co., and the rest worked for companies such as meatpackers, which had plants in the stockyards.[24] By 1900, the 475-acre (1.92 km2) stockyard contained 50 miles (80 km) of road, and had 130 miles (210 km) of track along its perimeter.[20] At its largest area, The Yards covered nearly 1 square mile (3 km2) of land, from Halsted Street to Ashland Avenue and from 39th (now Pershing Rd.) to 47th Streets."
    - msrenee 6y ago
      Is it helpful or relevant for me to add that the slaughterhouses in my city used to be right in the middle of town? They're still there actually, just on a smaller scale and the city has grown so much that that's not the middle of town anymore.
- watwut 6y ago
  > My point is that people calling for integrated cities with services all within walking distances need also to accommodate the dirty/loud/dangerous jobs. Outsourcing such things to beyond the city limits is simply a repeat of current zoning policies using different names. No, it is not current zoning policy. It is literally different policy, the one in which you dont make undisturbing business illegal and push only dirty/loud/dangerous businesses further away. Those two are different policies with different outcomes. I don't know what it is with tendency to abstract away all differences between very different policies and talk about all of them as if they were the same as extreme. > The "20-minute city" concept boils down to just another call for better public transportation options. People actually want to walk, skateboard or bike to services they need for their daily lives.
  - sandworm101 6y ago
    >> People actually want to walk, skateboard or bike to services they need for their daily lives. It was -13 outside my place this morning. Icy. Dark. I haven't seen a bicycle on the roads for at least five months. I have absolutely no desire to skateboard anywhere.

by piva00 6y ago

sandworm101 6y ago

>> For these jobs you have industrial areas outside of the city skirts and good public transportation to/from the city neighbourhoods So... zoning. How is that any different than cities today? How then is the "20-minute city" any different than a city today + better public transport? My point is that people calling for integrated cities with services all within walking distances need also to accommodate the dirty/loud/dangerous jobs. Outsourcing such things to beyond the city limits is simply a repeat of current zoning policies using different names. The "20-minute city" concept boils down to just another call for better public transportation options. Ok. Cool. Do that. Just don't pretend you are doing anything revolutionary.

FalconSensei 6y ago
Yes zoning, but only for some things. You don't need to have all office spaces in downtown. You don't need only big supermarkets that are in just a few neighbourhoods. If less people have to move over long distances, it makes easier for the ones that need to.
- quantumwannabe 6y ago
  So...a car dependent city then. They tend to have their office buildings distributed fairly evenly throughout the metro area and have a supermarket in pretty much every neighborhood. Every daily need and lots of non-daily needs are less than 20 minutes away. Just admit that you want public transit and high density and stop trying to weasel around saying so. All of the benefits professed about dense living already exist in most car dependent cities, with the only difference being the mode of transportation used. In a car dependent area, industrial areas are also part of the 20-minute neighborhood without the downsides of having to live a 20 minutes walk from them. Outside of a handful of cities (mostly on the West Coast) that failed to expand their infrastructure when their populations grew, people in car dependent areas already live in 20 minute neighborhoods. You just disagree with their lifestyle and transportation choices. If someone comes along and builds lots of 100 story skyscrapers when the transit system can only support 10 story buildings, the same issue will befall your beloved dense public transit dependent city.
  - FalconSensei 6y ago
    No. It's about not needing a car. Also, as many mentioned here: in Europe and U.K. you have less dense areas or small towns where you have everything you need there. While in some places in US you might only get groceries in a 30 min drive to Walmart. Changing a 30 min car drive to a 45 min bus ride doesn't solve the problem.
    - quantumwannabe 6y ago
      Someone who is driving 30 minutes to a store lives in an area so rural they don't even live in a town or in a town so small no business could be profitable. A person living in a similar area in the UK would also have to drive. A 30 minute drive on the highway is over 30 miles - more than the diameter of most cities. Subtract a little time for parking and time spent on city streets and you can still get pretty much anywhere in an entire city in less than half an hour door to door. Most people in the US already live in a 20 minute (or less) city. You also just made my point - "it's about not needing a car". Why do you care that someone uses a car? The person living in the suburbs spends around the same amount of time transiting to their daily destinations as someone in a dense area does. So for someone who doesn't mind driving (i.e. most people), your proposed solution to their "problem" (which they don't have) offers little benefit but comes with downsides like smaller (or no) houses.
      - coryrc 6y ago
        > Why do you care that someone uses a car? Because the elderly and young can't use them, the poor sacrifice too much to have one.
      - piva00 6y ago
        > Why do you care that someone uses a car? I don't care if they use a car, I care if they need a car to do basic things such as: grocery shopping, going to a café, to a restaurant, to a park, to meet friends and so on. I really care if a car is a basic necessity for life, it's stupid, I came from such a country and it's just stressful, stressful to drive in traffic, stressful to maintain a car's upkeep, taxes, parking spot. All of that eats your money so you can have a care idling 95-99% of the time, it's a waste of resources, both financial and mental. > So for someone who doesn't mind driving (i.e. most people) How can you state that? Do you have data to corroborate this statement? What culture are you talking about? I believe you see all of this too much with a US-centric myopic approach, the kinds of cities being discussed already exist in other parts of Earth, have you lived in one of them?
Ap777 6y ago
It isn't zoning when it happens naturslly >Town is built. >convenience store is willing to pay a premium for land that puts it in close proximity of potential customers. >meat plant is not because they aren't banking on Joe Schmoe strolling by going "huh yknow what I could use 35lbs of beef"
- sandworm101 6y ago
  Meat plants are not placed near customers. They are placed near employees. The goods are then shipped wide and far. "Natural" zoning did indeed see slaughterhouses inside major cities, right in the middle of residential areas. Zoning and health codes then pushed such industries outside cities. They are now placed wherever labor is cheap. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Stock_Yards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Stock_Yards "Two thousand men worked directly for the Union Stock Yard & Transit Co., and the rest worked for companies such as meatpackers, which had plants in the stockyards.[24] By 1900, the 475-acre (1.92 km2) stockyard contained 50 miles (80 km) of road, and had 130 miles (210 km) of track along its perimeter.[20] At its largest area, The Yards covered nearly 1 square mile (3 km2) of land, from Halsted Street to Ashland Avenue and from 39th (now Pershing Rd.) to 47th Streets."
  - msrenee 6y ago
    Is it helpful or relevant for me to add that the slaughterhouses in my city used to be right in the middle of town? They're still there actually, just on a smaller scale and the city has grown so much that that's not the middle of town anymore.
watwut 6y ago
> My point is that people calling for integrated cities with services all within walking distances need also to accommodate the dirty/loud/dangerous jobs. Outsourcing such things to beyond the city limits is simply a repeat of current zoning policies using different names. No, it is not current zoning policy. It is literally different policy, the one in which you dont make undisturbing business illegal and push only dirty/loud/dangerous businesses further away. Those two are different policies with different outcomes. I don't know what it is with tendency to abstract away all differences between very different policies and talk about all of them as if they were the same as extreme. > The "20-minute city" concept boils down to just another call for better public transportation options. People actually want to walk, skateboard or bike to services they need for their daily lives.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  >> People actually want to walk, skateboard or bike to services they need for their daily lives. It was -13 outside my place this morning. Icy. Dark. I haven't seen a bicycle on the roads for at least five months. I have absolutely no desire to skateboard anywhere.