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Myth #3 – Introverts are rude. Introverts often don’t see a reason for beating around the bush with social pleasantries. They want everyone to just be real and

Myth #3 – Introverts are rude. Introverts often don’t see a reason for beating around the bush with social pleasantries. They want everyone to just be real and honest. Yes, this is often called being rude. It may be true that by this guys definition introverts don't mean to be rude, but if a person (introvert or otherwise) acts as described above, that is rude.

46Bit 15y ago
If we're going to keep to narrow introvert/extrovert definitions here, then to an extrovert only is that rude. Personally I find small talk and social pleasantries little more than a way to waste time and pretend you care more than you really do. I rely on the pretty sensible concept that if someone has anything important to tell me, they'll come out with it. Besides, the internet is wonderful for me because social niceties have faded. You don't get forum posts with 5 lines of social waffle, you get people just cutting to the chase. Think just-go-ahead-and-say-it IRC.
- Monkeyget 15y ago
  Social niceties serve as a grease that makes the social interaction go smoothly. By avoiding those and being frank and direct you only introduce sand in the mechanism. There was a wonderful quote to this effect a while ago on HN but I can't quite find it.
  - mkr-hn 15y ago
    How does it introduce sand without one party deciding it's going to create friction? It wouldn't exist between two no-need-for-pleasantries people.
    - munificent 15y ago
      Smalltalk is exactly how you find out what the other party's preferred communication style is. People don't give a shit about the weather. They talk about it because it's a convenient substrate to see how a person interacts. Are they terse? Long-winded? Sad? Happy? What kind of accent to they have? Do they seem busy?
      - mkr-hn 15y ago
        "Are you busy?" "Rough day?" Would you consider things like that small talk? I don't, and it's usually enough to decide how to proceed. Being direct can mean asking someone if they're up to dealing with what you have to say. I've found that empathy is a great conversation starter.
  - crazymik3 15y ago
    I don't really understand how not going directly to the point can be better, for any mechanism.
    - hugh3 15y ago
      And I don't really understand how thirty seconds of chit-chat about the weather is worse. Can you give me an example of the kind of small talk that you find to be painful?
      - meow 15y ago
        30 seconds of small talk about weather with 30 people a day ... is painful..
    - seabee 15y ago
      I'm sorry, in which world do all these introverts live where any topic is perfectly OK to talk about at any time? Small talk and social niceties aren't merely hot air, they are tools you can use to assess a person's mood, what they are interested in or comfortable discussing, or even whether it is productive to discuss something at all. Consider it the metadata of conversation. Also consider that conversation is two-way communication. You reveal information about yourself not just by the answers you give, but by the questions you ask.
      - hugh3 15y ago
        It also establishes the fundamental fact "This is a friendly conversation". If I walk into my subordinate's office right now and say "Have you finished that graph yet?" then that communicates that I'm really impatient about getting that graph. Which would be fine if I am, but I'm not. If I do that, I'll just make him jumpy and anxious. Instead I'll wander down to his office and start with a "Hey, how's it going?" before asking about the graph, cuz I'm not actually impatient to get it, I'm just interested to know whether he's making progress or whether there's anything I need to help him with. The smalltalk is basically just equivalent to "I come in peace". If I were a gorilla I'd probably have to do this with gestures and facial expressions, but since I'm a human I have this extra tool in my arsenal to communicate the non-threatening nature of my approach. Awesome!
  - orangecat 15y ago
    Social niceties serve as a grease that makes the social interaction go smoothly. Again, for extroverts. For (many) introverts forced small talk is unnatural and often makes interactions more awkward.
- clark-kent 15y ago
  How about really caring about people. Asking them how their day is going, cracking a joke to make someone smile. That's what smalltalk is really about.
wccrawford 15y ago
Actually, you'll find that in some places, it isn't rude to be straightforward and honest. And even blunt. You have to actually start insulting people to be considered 'rude' in those places. Introverts like those places.
- davidcuddeback 15y ago
  Which places are those? Are you talking about geographical locations, or do you mean "places" like in a focus group or an R&D department? If there is a geographical location where the cultural norm is to be straightforward and honest, I would like to visit there to see what it is like.
  - wccrawford 15y ago
    Both, but since you wanted an example: http://www.expatharem.com/2011/03/09/rude-honesty/ http://www.expatharem.com/2011/03/09/rude-honesty/
  - sambe 15y ago
    The Dutch are known for this.
  - phaedon 15y ago
    Germany and the German-speaking world (Deutschosphere?) in general. In fact, the BBC had something on this recently http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13545386 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13545386
    - davidcuddeback 15y ago
      Interesting. I've always gotten along well with Germans, but in reading that article, I can tell that I have embedded in my speech some of the pleasantries that annoy Germans. I'm even more interested in visiting Germany and the Netherlands than I already was. Thanks to all three of you for your examples.
  - reinhardt 15y ago
lotharbot 15y ago
> this is often called being rude. By extroverts. Meanwhile, many introverts consider it rude to waste their time with meaningless chatter.
- jamesaguilar 15y ago
  Not just by extroverts. Some of us introverts also agree with the common definition of the word "rude." It's pointless to say that X is not Y by redefining Y. When Y has a commonly understood definition, the more useful thing to do is debate whether it is important to be Y.
bdhe 15y ago
Being rude is also largely cultural. Sometimes American niceties although superficially are very pleasant can get tiring to people who tend to be more introverted and are from cultures that are more straightforward. Many people I've personally known complain that German flight attendants seem rude which I think is more a cultural difference than anything else. Similarly, however difficult it might be, one must always be judged to be rude or not based on intent and not body language or tone alone (at least, give him/her the benefit of doubt).
- vacri 15y ago
  I met a 70-year-old South African man living in Arizona. He mentioned one of the strange things about polite behaviour was sending 'thank you' cards. He said it was more for his generation and wasn't so much with the younger folks, but basically he was saying you would visit someone and stay with them, and it didn't matter if you thanked them profusely and gave them gifts or paid for dinners to show gratitude, you still needed to send a 'thank you' letter when you got home. If you didn't send it, the other party would usually be offended. Similarly a consultant friend of mine talks of a US colleague who worked in her office for half a year here in Aus. Just before he went back he lamented that he probably would have had a better time if he'd realised that the people being perfectly polite to him in the office probably didn't like him, and those making friendly fun of him probably liked him a lot.
  - vacri 15y ago
    (to clarify, the 'thank you' note was a US thing, strange to a South African upbringing)
MatthewPhillips 15y ago
I think he was hitting on the notion that introverts might be quiet at a party and this is considered rude for not making the rounds and bullshitting with every one there. That might go against social norm, but it's not being rude.
- kenjackson 15y ago
  I don't think anyone considers wallflowers rude. Have you seen Beautiful Young Minds? There's a scene where one of the students learns he has made the next round. The narrator says "congratulations". They chat a bit, and as the narrator is leaving he says, "congratulations" again, and the student in a dismissive way says, "You already said that". I think that's what most people see in introverts that is rude. Or when you say "Hi Tim" in the hall and he just looks away. Or if you ask "Can you pass the ketchup?" in the cafeteria and they say, "I prefer not to". All of these are probably very honest responses, yet I think I'd bucket them as rude.

46Bit 15y ago

If we're going to keep to narrow introvert/extrovert definitions here, then to an extrovert only is that rude. Personally I find small talk and social pleasantries little more than a way to waste time and pretend you care more than you really do. I rely on the pretty sensible concept that if someone has anything important to tell me, they'll come out with it. Besides, the internet is wonderful for me because social niceties have faded. You don't get forum posts with 5 lines of social waffle, you get people just cutting to the chase. Think just-go-ahead-and-say-it IRC.

Monkeyget 15y ago
Social niceties serve as a grease that makes the social interaction go smoothly. By avoiding those and being frank and direct you only introduce sand in the mechanism. There was a wonderful quote to this effect a while ago on HN but I can't quite find it.
- mkr-hn 15y ago
  How does it introduce sand without one party deciding it's going to create friction? It wouldn't exist between two no-need-for-pleasantries people.
  - munificent 15y ago
    Smalltalk is exactly how you find out what the other party's preferred communication style is. People don't give a shit about the weather. They talk about it because it's a convenient substrate to see how a person interacts. Are they terse? Long-winded? Sad? Happy? What kind of accent to they have? Do they seem busy?
    - mkr-hn 15y ago
      "Are you busy?" "Rough day?" Would you consider things like that small talk? I don't, and it's usually enough to decide how to proceed. Being direct can mean asking someone if they're up to dealing with what you have to say. I've found that empathy is a great conversation starter.
- crazymik3 15y ago
  I don't really understand how not going directly to the point can be better, for any mechanism.
  - hugh3 15y ago
    And I don't really understand how thirty seconds of chit-chat about the weather is worse. Can you give me an example of the kind of small talk that you find to be painful?
    - meow 15y ago
      30 seconds of small talk about weather with 30 people a day ... is painful..
  - seabee 15y ago
    I'm sorry, in which world do all these introverts live where any topic is perfectly OK to talk about at any time? Small talk and social niceties aren't merely hot air, they are tools you can use to assess a person's mood, what they are interested in or comfortable discussing, or even whether it is productive to discuss something at all. Consider it the metadata of conversation. Also consider that conversation is two-way communication. You reveal information about yourself not just by the answers you give, but by the questions you ask.
    - hugh3 15y ago
      It also establishes the fundamental fact "This is a friendly conversation". If I walk into my subordinate's office right now and say "Have you finished that graph yet?" then that communicates that I'm really impatient about getting that graph. Which would be fine if I am, but I'm not. If I do that, I'll just make him jumpy and anxious. Instead I'll wander down to his office and start with a "Hey, how's it going?" before asking about the graph, cuz I'm not actually impatient to get it, I'm just interested to know whether he's making progress or whether there's anything I need to help him with. The smalltalk is basically just equivalent to "I come in peace". If I were a gorilla I'd probably have to do this with gestures and facial expressions, but since I'm a human I have this extra tool in my arsenal to communicate the non-threatening nature of my approach. Awesome!
- orangecat 15y ago
  Social niceties serve as a grease that makes the social interaction go smoothly. Again, for extroverts. For (many) introverts forced small talk is unnatural and often makes interactions more awkward.
clark-kent 15y ago
How about really caring about people. Asking them how their day is going, cracking a joke to make someone smile. That's what smalltalk is really about.

wccrawford 15y ago

Actually, you'll find that in some places, it isn't rude to be straightforward and honest. And even blunt. You have to actually start insulting people to be considered 'rude' in those places. Introverts like those places.

davidcuddeback 15y ago
Which places are those? Are you talking about geographical locations, or do you mean "places" like in a focus group or an R&D department? If there is a geographical location where the cultural norm is to be straightforward and honest, I would like to visit there to see what it is like.
- wccrawford 15y ago
  Both, but since you wanted an example: http://www.expatharem.com/2011/03/09/rude-honesty/ http://www.expatharem.com/2011/03/09/rude-honesty/
- sambe 15y ago
  The Dutch are known for this.
- phaedon 15y ago
  Germany and the German-speaking world (Deutschosphere?) in general. In fact, the BBC had something on this recently http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13545386 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13545386
  - davidcuddeback 15y ago
    Interesting. I've always gotten along well with Germans, but in reading that article, I can tell that I have embedded in my speech some of the pleasantries that annoy Germans. I'm even more interested in visiting Germany and the Netherlands than I already was. Thanks to all three of you for your examples.
- reinhardt 15y ago

lotharbot 15y ago

> this is often called being rude. By extroverts. Meanwhile, many introverts consider it rude to waste their time with meaningless chatter.

jamesaguilar 15y ago
Not just by extroverts. Some of us introverts also agree with the common definition of the word "rude." It's pointless to say that X is not Y by redefining Y. When Y has a commonly understood definition, the more useful thing to do is debate whether it is important to be Y.

bdhe 15y ago

Being rude is also largely cultural. Sometimes American niceties although superficially are very pleasant can get tiring to people who tend to be more introverted and are from cultures that are more straightforward. Many people I've personally known complain that German flight attendants seem rude which I think is more a cultural difference than anything else. Similarly, however difficult it might be, one must always be judged to be rude or not based on intent and not body language or tone alone (at least, give him/her the benefit of doubt).

vacri 15y ago
I met a 70-year-old South African man living in Arizona. He mentioned one of the strange things about polite behaviour was sending 'thank you' cards. He said it was more for his generation and wasn't so much with the younger folks, but basically he was saying you would visit someone and stay with them, and it didn't matter if you thanked them profusely and gave them gifts or paid for dinners to show gratitude, you still needed to send a 'thank you' letter when you got home. If you didn't send it, the other party would usually be offended. Similarly a consultant friend of mine talks of a US colleague who worked in her office for half a year here in Aus. Just before he went back he lamented that he probably would have had a better time if he'd realised that the people being perfectly polite to him in the office probably didn't like him, and those making friendly fun of him probably liked him a lot.
- vacri 15y ago
  (to clarify, the 'thank you' note was a US thing, strange to a South African upbringing)

MatthewPhillips 15y ago

I think he was hitting on the notion that introverts might be quiet at a party and this is considered rude for not making the rounds and bullshitting with every one there. That might go against social norm, but it's not being rude.

kenjackson 15y ago
I don't think anyone considers wallflowers rude. Have you seen Beautiful Young Minds? There's a scene where one of the students learns he has made the next round. The narrator says "congratulations". They chat a bit, and as the narrator is leaving he says, "congratulations" again, and the student in a dismissive way says, "You already said that". I think that's what most people see in introverts that is rude. Or when you say "Hi Tim" in the hall and he just looks away. Or if you ask "Can you pass the ketchup?" in the cafeteria and they say, "I prefer not to". All of these are probably very honest responses, yet I think I'd bucket them as rude.