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While there‘s truth to that, it doesn‘t bring home my own issue with WFH: It might be okay to much better for individual contributors, but it‘s harsh for me as

While there‘s truth to that, it doesn‘t bring home my own issue with WFH: It might be okay to much better for individual contributors, but it‘s harsh for me as a manager. Zoom (fatigue) meetings all day, staring at the screen instead of real people and any form of "managing by walking around" and watercooler chats are gone. This might not make a difference if my job was a corporate mess and sucked before already, but for people like me who actually enjoy their peers, it‘s a net negative. I feel completely out of touch with what happens in the company and everything feels super transactional. I mean, nobody opens a Zoom call to just chit-chat about mundane stuff. Well, some do but I‘m sick of taking any additional video call beyond the 4h I’m enduring every day. Sure, we could adjust to an even more asynchronous workflow like the poster child remote companies, but to me it would make this issue even worse. I can see how this benefits introverts and people with social anxiety, but as for extroverts me, I‘m getting more depressed every day.

mschuster91 6y ago
> Well, some do but I‘m sick of taking any additional video call beyond the 4h I’m enduring every day. Looks to me like that is the root problem you're having...
pts_ 6y ago
"managing by walking around" Always reminds me of meth lab enforcers walking around and intimidating illegal immigrant meth cooks on a meth assembly line.
midasuni 6y ago
We have an open slack chat during the day. Looking forward to going to the pub with colleagues when it reopens in a couple of weeks, but nobody wants to go to an office to sit around.
llampx 6y ago
I started a job as a manager during the pandemic, with everyone working from home. It sucked. On top of the usual difficulties with onboarding remotely, I had to deal with getting to know everyone around me in a 360 degree sphere, and forming relationships when most people had already been able to get to know each other in person. Can not wait to get back to being able to meet people in person, even if remote and WFH is allowed and accepted in the future, which I think it will be for all but the most dinosaur of companies.
dbetteridge 6y ago
To ask the pointed question, How do the employees you manage feel about the change? Because for me the concept of managers 'just walking around' gives me that itchy feeling on the back of my neck. And at the end of the day if the employees who write code/produce output are doing that efficiently that is the goal right.
- endymi0n 6y ago
  Good one, actually most of my employees feel the same way. You might have a bad case of a micromanager there, but here‘s my definition: > Management by walking around emphasizes the importance of interpersonal contact, open appreciation, and recognition. It is one of the most important ways to build civility and performance in the workplace. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318016170_Managing_by_Walking_Around https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318016170_Managing_... Your definition of success might be technically right, but doesn‘t resonate with me. What good does it do if some code works but the employees behind that aren‘t happy, don‘t feel valued and we can‘t celebrate success together?
  - dbetteridge 6y ago
    Fair enough then, sounds like your team would be happy with a balance of WFH/Office. I thankfully no longer have to deal with micromanaging, but have in the past (hence the itchy neck feeling). I should have specified happiness in there somewhere because I agree that the efficiency should come with happy team members. In my case if theres something I need to make me happier as a team member I'll just ask, but I guess that isn't the case for everyone.
- UncleMeat 6y ago
  > And at the end of the day if the employees who write code/produce output are doing that efficiently that is the goal right. That is the short term goal. But it isn't the only goal. I want my reports to trust me so that if things change or they are having problems that they'll be honest with me and provide feedback so I can make things better. I want my reports to feel valued and emotionally satisfied with their work. This means understanding their career goals and what makes them feel happy so I can make sure that they get the kinds of rewards that matter to them. These sorts of things are important for the long term sustainability of a team even if a team is delivering efficiently at a given moment.
TeMPOraL 6y ago
> I mean, nobody opens a Zoom call to just chit-chat about mundane stuff. Well, some do but I‘m sick of taking any additional video call beyond the 4h I’m enduring every day. Some indeed do, but for some reason it requires more effort than meeting physically did. I never did that, but I had co-workers who did it regularly even pre-pandemic. What more people do, though, is chit-chat about mundane stuff on IMs. Depending on the company, your subordinates may already have their own #random / #offtopic channel. Of course, as a manager, you need to stay away from it and pretend you don't know it exists :). But I wonder if there's a space for managers to create a second off-topic channel for their team - one that contains the manager as well. Most of the casual talk will of course stay on the original #random (the boss/subordinate separation cannot be bridged, everyone knows it's there even if they pretend it's not), but the #random+boss chat could capture the kind of conversations you'd ordinarily have on the corridor/around the doors to your office. I know I had plenty of semi-casual chats like this IRL with my boss back in my office days, and they were good for morale. I think this concept didn't translate well into pandemic/forced-WFH world. Of course, if you don't like casual IMing and prefer synchronous communication, then that's not an option for you. > I can see how this benefits introverts and people with social anxiety, but as for extroverts me, I‘m getting more depressed every day. I sympathize. I hope this will end soon, and that we all find balance again. Your company may not return to full-office, but when the restrictions end, it'll be easier to see people IRL even if everyone's mostly working from home. For what's worth, I'm more on the introvert end, and yet I sometimes feel I'm on the verge of losing my mind - we introverts have limits, too, and this pandemic situation is stressing them.
- nicoburns 6y ago
  > What more people do, though, is chit-chat about mundane stuff on IMs. Depending on the company, your subordinates may already have their own #random / #offtopic channel. Of course, as a manager, you need to stay away from it and pretend you don't know it exists :). Why is that? At all the companies I have worked at the managers would join in with these kind of things same as everyone else (not all of them, but then not of all the ICs were interested either).
  - 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

mschuster91 6y ago

> Well, some do but I‘m sick of taking any additional video call beyond the 4h I’m enduring every day. Looks to me like that is the root problem you're having...

pts_ 6y ago

"managing by walking around" Always reminds me of meth lab enforcers walking around and intimidating illegal immigrant meth cooks on a meth assembly line.

midasuni 6y ago

We have an open slack chat during the day. Looking forward to going to the pub with colleagues when it reopens in a couple of weeks, but nobody wants to go to an office to sit around.

llampx 6y ago

I started a job as a manager during the pandemic, with everyone working from home. It sucked. On top of the usual difficulties with onboarding remotely, I had to deal with getting to know everyone around me in a 360 degree sphere, and forming relationships when most people had already been able to get to know each other in person. Can not wait to get back to being able to meet people in person, even if remote and WFH is allowed and accepted in the future, which I think it will be for all but the most dinosaur of companies.

dbetteridge 6y ago

To ask the pointed question, How do the employees you manage feel about the change? Because for me the concept of managers 'just walking around' gives me that itchy feeling on the back of my neck. And at the end of the day if the employees who write code/produce output are doing that efficiently that is the goal right.

endymi0n 6y ago
Good one, actually most of my employees feel the same way. You might have a bad case of a micromanager there, but here‘s my definition: > Management by walking around emphasizes the importance of interpersonal contact, open appreciation, and recognition. It is one of the most important ways to build civility and performance in the workplace. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318016170_Managing_by_Walking_Around https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318016170_Managing_... Your definition of success might be technically right, but doesn‘t resonate with me. What good does it do if some code works but the employees behind that aren‘t happy, don‘t feel valued and we can‘t celebrate success together?
- dbetteridge 6y ago
  Fair enough then, sounds like your team would be happy with a balance of WFH/Office. I thankfully no longer have to deal with micromanaging, but have in the past (hence the itchy neck feeling). I should have specified happiness in there somewhere because I agree that the efficiency should come with happy team members. In my case if theres something I need to make me happier as a team member I'll just ask, but I guess that isn't the case for everyone.
UncleMeat 6y ago
> And at the end of the day if the employees who write code/produce output are doing that efficiently that is the goal right. That is the short term goal. But it isn't the only goal. I want my reports to trust me so that if things change or they are having problems that they'll be honest with me and provide feedback so I can make things better. I want my reports to feel valued and emotionally satisfied with their work. This means understanding their career goals and what makes them feel happy so I can make sure that they get the kinds of rewards that matter to them. These sorts of things are important for the long term sustainability of a team even if a team is delivering efficiently at a given moment.

TeMPOraL 6y ago

> I mean, nobody opens a Zoom call to just chit-chat about mundane stuff. Well, some do but I‘m sick of taking any additional video call beyond the 4h I’m enduring every day. Some indeed do, but for some reason it requires more effort than meeting physically did. I never did that, but I had co-workers who did it regularly even pre-pandemic. What more people do, though, is chit-chat about mundane stuff on IMs. Depending on the company, your subordinates may already have their own #random / #offtopic channel. Of course, as a manager, you need to stay away from it and pretend you don't know it exists :). But I wonder if there's a space for managers to create a second off-topic channel for their team - one that contains the manager as well. Most of the casual talk will of course stay on the original #random (the boss/subordinate separation cannot be bridged, everyone knows it's there even if they pretend it's not), but the #random+boss chat could capture the kind of conversations you'd ordinarily have on the corridor/around the doors to your office. I know I had plenty of semi-casual chats like this IRL with my boss back in my office days, and they were good for morale. I think this concept didn't translate well into pandemic/forced-WFH world. Of course, if you don't like casual IMing and prefer synchronous communication, then that's not an option for you. > I can see how this benefits introverts and people with social anxiety, but as for extroverts me, I‘m getting more depressed every day. I sympathize. I hope this will end soon, and that we all find balance again. Your company may not return to full-office, but when the restrictions end, it'll be easier to see people IRL even if everyone's mostly working from home. For what's worth, I'm more on the introvert end, and yet I sometimes feel I'm on the verge of losing my mind - we introverts have limits, too, and this pandemic situation is stressing them.

nicoburns 6y ago
> What more people do, though, is chit-chat about mundane stuff on IMs. Depending on the company, your subordinates may already have their own #random / #offtopic channel. Of course, as a manager, you need to stay away from it and pretend you don't know it exists :). Why is that? At all the companies I have worked at the managers would join in with these kind of things same as everyone else (not all of them, but then not of all the ICs were interested either).
- 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]